Worldview of Devas

The Watercooler
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I’m looking to incorporate devas into my practice as a westerner as I feel it will lead me to a deeper understanding of the dhamma.

During this winter season, I have been reflecting on house spirits who embody a sense of peace, virtue, and keeping the family happy. With an offering of a candle, porrage, small trinkets, a christmas tree and lights I feel I can bring a warm ambiance to my living space. Other beings of the Thutha De Danan like Lugh, and others who represent emaculate craftsmanship and musical skill also seem as if they would be helpful for our everyday practice, especially as lay practitioners.

Since these beings are from a western perspective I feel that these beings would be more familiar to the western outlook and will possibly lead us to a greater understanding of the Buddha’s teaching in the long run as long as our view is inclined towards liberation. I am aware that right view is composed of understanding dukkha, anicca, and anatta, though my background of a materialistic mindset I feel is hindering the quality of Saddha in practice.

My question would be, how can we incorporate these beings of the western mindset into the unfamiliar beings of Indian thought. Are they compatible, and is it okay to make parallel connections between eastern and western thought in this way? By western outlook, I mean of a pre-christianized mindset.

I have read most of Ajahn Punnadhammo’s Buddhist cosmology, Ajahn Achalo’s dhamma talks in regard to Devannusati, and some interesting stories from other Ajahns in regard to the supernatural. I’m now trying to piece these things together for my own personalized practice and ways I can go about it.

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I don’t have a deep understanding about these things, but i found it interesting too. I would appreciate answers from people with more experience with these practices with deities in Theravada Buddhism, that seems less present in western contexts.

As far as I understand, devas interact with human beings in lot of ways. There are suttas that talk about doing offerings and merit-dedication to the devas. And many parittas are dedicated to these beings. There is also Devanussati, the recollection of the deities, one of the six recollections recommended by the Buddha to the laypersons. The Buddha seems to not interfere in the practices of the people of his time, but he advised some adaptations to make these practices compatible with the Precepts and Right View.

I understand that many devas are not followers of the Buddha, and the priority in the practice is the end of suffering. I also understand that these practices concerning devas should not be the priority in the practice of the Dhamma. But there is a tendency of western buddhists in ignoring these aspects of the teaching, and this seems to let some empty spaces in the practice.

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The Āṭānāṭiya Protection
Āṭānāṭiyasutta
DN 32

Mighty spirits hold a congregation, and warn the Buddha that, since not all spirits are friendly, the mendicants should learn verses of protection.

SuttaCentral

The Sublime Attitudes

[Hotu sabbaṁ sumaṅgalaṁ]
May there be every good blessing.

Rakkhantu sabba-devatā
May all the devas protect you.

Sabba-buddhānubhāvena
Through the power of all the Buddhas,

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṁ
may you forever be well.

Hotu sabbaṁ sumaṅgalaṁ
May there be every good blessing.

Rakkhantu sabba-devatā
May all the devas protect you.

Sabba-dhammānubhāvena
Through the power of all the Dhamma,

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṁ
may you forever be well.

Hotu sabbaṁ sumaṅgalaṁ
May there be every good blessing.

Rakkhantu sabba-devatā
May all the devas protect you.

Sabba-saṅghānubhāvena
Through the power of all the Saṅgha,

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṁ
may you forever be well.

The Sublime Attitudes | A Chanting Guide

Ghosts of the Mountain - Mae Chee Kaew

Mae Chee Kaew's anagami fruition - #16 by LucasOliveira

:anjal:

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From my understanding, Devas are pleased by ritualistic purity, so keeping yourself body clean would help. Quitting smoking, alcoholic drinks and casual sex would attract more devas to your life. Doing dana on behalf of your deceased ancestors is a form of making merit to those who are reborn as devas. Facing a certain direction when you pray or ask requests should follow the religion of your birth, not of your choice. For reference:

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Devas in the sense of general religious beliefs about spiritual/divine beings are certainly part of Buddhism from early Buddhism.

For example, Devata, Devaputta, Mara, Brahma, Sakka, Vana, and Yakkha, are featured in the Sagatha-vagga of Samyutta-nikaya/Samyukta-agama. These texts indicate early Buddhist adaptation of general Indian religious beliefs about divine beings (devas), although regarding not the core teachings (such as you mentioned “right view”) of Buddhism.

There are, therefore, various religious beliefs and practices on devas in different areas of Buddhism (such as Thai, Chinese, Japanese Buddhist traditions).

As for “how can we incorporate these beings of the western mindset into the unfamiliar beings of Indian thought. Are they compatible, and is it okay to make parallel connections between eastern and western thought in this way?”, I think you are certainly free to create any new adaptations (of supernatural/paranormal/spiritualism) for yourself.

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“Such is the Uposatha of the Noble Ones, Visakha. When this Uposatha of the Noble Ones is undertaken, it is of great fruit & great benefit, of great glory & great radiance. And how is it of great fruit & great benefit, of great glory & great radiance?

“Suppose that one were to exercise kingship, rule, & sovereignty over these sixteen great lands replete with the seven treasures, i.e., over the Angas, Maghadans, Kasis, Kosalans, Vajjians, Mallas, Cetis, Vansans, Kurus, Pañcalas, Macchas, Surasenas, Assakas, Avantis, Gandharans, & Kambojans: It would not be worth one-sixteenth of this Uposatha endowed with eight factors. Why is that? Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.

“Fifty human years are equal to one day & night among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Thirty such days & nights make a month. Twelve such months make a year. Five hundred such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman—from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors—on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. It was in reference to this that it was said, ‘Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.’

“A human century is equal to one day & night among the Devas of the Thirty-Three. Thirty such days & nights make a month… One thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Devas of the Thirty-three. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman—from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors—on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the Devas of the Thirty-three. It was in reference to this that it was said, ‘Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.’

“Two human centuries are equal to one day & night among the Yama Devas… Two thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Yama Devas…

“Four human centuries are equal to one day & night among the Contented Devas… Four thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Contented Devas…

“Eight human centuries is equal to one day & night among the devas who delight in creation… Eight thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the devas who delight in creation…

“Sixteen human centuries are equal to one day & night among the devas who have power over the creations of others. Thirty such days & nights make a month. Twelve such months make a year. Sixteen thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the devas who have power over the creations of others. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman—from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors—on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the devas who have power over the creations of others. It was in reference to this that it was said, ‘Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.’”

SuttaCentral

:anjal:

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@Bundokji , would you explain this part? Should we revere the devas of our religion of birth (while keeping our faith in the Dhamma of course)? Would you explain the reasons?

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Devas Exist, Miracles Happen

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha297.htm

Devas?!

According to the news, he doesn’t know the person who touched his shoulder
https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/vk5de2/according_to_the_news_he_doesnt_know_the_person/

:anjal:

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There is a sutta teaches that catumaharajika devas dwell on earth during the uposatha checking people who are good towards their parents, then report back to tavatimsa devas. As tavatimsa devas engage in sensuality without breeding, they depend on human and animal wombs to beef up their ranks with the asuras. As such, the family unit is mark of Brahmanism, where venerating the family is conducive to contentment in contrast with what one can attain by choice. The family unit itself extends to devas as fathers of organized religions of Brahmans. For example, Muslims descended from Ishmael and the Jews descended from Israel (the suffix ael stands for a deva). Both pray to certain direction, facing the devas of some sort.

This highlights the significance of tavatimsa devas to both Brahmanism and Sramanism. The term “sotapanna” has two connotations:

1- Sota-panna: which is wisdom through hearing (for Brahmans)
2- sot-apanna: which is translated as stream enter-er (for Sramana)

Keeping in mind that Cātummahārājika stand for the four directions, the story of venerable Sariputta might give you a hint:

We are told in the Commentary to the Nava Sutta (Sutta-Nipata), and also in the Commentary to v. 392 of the Dhammapada, that whenever the Venerable Sariputta lived in the same monastery as the Elder Assaji, he always went to pay obeisance to him immediately after having done so to the Blessed One. This he did out of reverence, thinking: “This venerable one was my first teacher. It was through him that I came to know the Buddha’s Dispensation.” And when the Elder Assaji lived in another monastery, the Venerable Sariputta used to face the direction in which the Elder Assaji was living, and to pay homage to him by touching the ground at five places (with the head, hands and feet), and saluting with joined palms.

But this led to misunderstanding, for when other monks saw it they said: “After becoming a Chief Disciple, Sariputta still worships the heavenly quarters! Even today he cannot give up his brahmanical views!” Hearing these remarks, the Blessed One said: “It is not so, bhikkhus. Sariputta does not worship the heavenly quarters. He salutes him through whom he came to know the Dhamma. It is him he salutes, worships and reveres as his teacher. Sariputta is one who gives devout respect to his teacher.” It was then that the Master preached to the monks assembled there the Nava Sutta, [9] which starts with the words:

“As gods their homage pay to Indra,
So should a man give reverence to him
From whom he learned the Dhamma.”

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel090.html

Another useful hint can be found in Bahiya sutta:

Now while he was in seclusion, this reflection arose in the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth: “Am I one of those in the world who are arahats or who have entered the path to arahatship?”

Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya :wink:of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: “You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship.”

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Its good to incorporate that , its also helps one in development of Saddha, Metta,karuna and other noble qualities in mind.

( the correct mind set here is by providing this offering , one is learning- practicing in Dana for others, in the process learning step by step letting go ,) Samma-Ditthi ( RIght View) also chances for contemplation on Dhamma. ( recollection Teaching of Buddha).

when you did that offering , after putting down the offering , light up the candle ,you could incorporated some reflection/ contemplation/prayers. with your hand in anjali position :pray: ( hand around chest)

Contemplation as follows; ( choose one/ or all as needed)

Namo TassaBhagavato Arahato Sammasambuddhasa 3 x

  1. With the offering of this light candle, just as light dispersing darkness, may this light suffused beings in all directions, may all beings free from ignorance.
    or ( made a self-determination)
    Just as light dispels the darkness , i shall practice Dhamma ( Sila,Samadhi,Panna) diligently to dispel ignorance in my mind. ).

  2. Porridge /food stuffs / fruits,
    contemplation :May this foods benefited to all beings for sustenance, may all being free for hunger and suffering.

  3. All other trinket ( May this offering benefitted all beings that in need)

suggestions
( i suggest a glass of clean drinking water) -
Contemplation :May this water cleans up all beings from defilements. ( Greed,Hatred,Ignorance) , or

( made a self-determination).
Just as this clean water, Dhamma shall clean up beings mind from defilements ( Greed,anger,Ignorance), I shall made in effort in maintaining Sila( practice of morality- Pancasila etc), practicing meditation (Samadhi), learning Dhamma ( Panna)

flowers - ( contemplate just as the this beutiful flowers, it scent,colour faded in time, may all beings gain wisdom of impermanence,

( made a self-determination).
Just as the fragrance of this flower, may the virtue of goodness spread across all realms.

May all beings be well and happy. ( wishing well to all beings :grin: )

closed it with
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu. :pray: :pray: :pray: …

or

you can add in prayer/well wishes such as short prayers to start your day.

May all these offering benefiting all Devas, beings seen unseen around here, at home, at workplace, etc,
Sabbe Sattha Bhavantu Sukhitata
May all beings be well and happy, free from sickness and danger.
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu. :pray: :pray: :pray:…

hope these input will be helpful for your new personalized practice, :pray:

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I’ve come fully from the western side ( so will enjoy reading this whole thread) … but I’ve been led here - so whilst u def seem to know more about the eastern side than I do at this point, … I’m just going to say absolutely one can lead to an understanding of the other - tho I’m still working on how/ where the western side fits in with the eastern.

I will say tho, if u get to encounter any beings and you’re not wanting to bow at their feet in absolute reverence- that ain’t no deva imo.

If anyone feels ‘not quite right’ trust your instincts and don’t let them tempt you in to anything. Tell them to take a hike no matter what is on offer :blush:

… and just coz - my nails at the moment​:point_down::rofl::ghost:

image
image2066×1770 500 KB

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This is not exaclty what you ask, but maybe it can be helpful.

I believe we can also connect to the Three Jewels with some feeling for/recognition of purity. That what is not karmically loaded/active in us. That what is already dispassionate, selfless and without any notion of possessions of a self. That dimension what is pure, undefiled. An entirely wholesome base from which thoughts, speech and actions can arise.

I did not connect to Three Jewels because i had some idea, or grant cosmological vision or understanding of endless samsara, and all these different realms and beings. But who really does have this knowledge?

I do not say it does not exist, but i feel that one can also connect to Dhamma not based upon such a grant vision. One can also feel that living the holy life is about the kind of purity Buddha teaches and embodies. And one can also realise that karmically active deeds, even bright ones, are not truly for ones own and others welbeing.

That is all not diffcult to feel in this very life. One can also have faith in Buddha as the Pure One, Stainless One, the Dhamma as what removes adventitious stains and the Sangha as those who want to protect what is pure and therefor really truthful and undistorted. Really entirely wholesome!

Or connect to that kind of understanding that having an undistorted knowing is best for all beings. Or, realising that serving ones own and others welbeing, one must first make an end to all forceful compulsive behavior in oneself. All those inner fetters and fettering that is not servings ones own and others welbeing.
One can see that whatever is fettering, this is not really a wholesome base, right?

Anyway, I feel there are more ways to connect to Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha then by this grant cosmological vision that is only present in a relative small part of the world or otherwise is imported. But still, who really knows all this? For me it is enough to know that there are other beings then what we call humans and animals.

Never heard of that before. Thanks for sharing. On Wikipedia i found some info.
I think it would be in line with Buddha’s mind that we must avoid to become dependend on anything, also the goodwil of devas.

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DN16 Māhaparinibānna sutta

Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis honor, respect, esteem, and venerate the Vajjian shrines, whether inner or outer, not neglecting the proper spirit-offerings that were given and made in the past?”
“I have heard that, sir.”
“As long as the Vajjis honor, respect, esteem, and venerate the Vajjian shrines, whether inner or outer, not neglecting the proper spirit-offerings that were given and made in the past, they can expect growth, not decline.

A commentary from Bhikkhu @sujato in the translation of Suttacentral:

The Buddha will stay at several of these shrines later in this discourse. They were sacred groves, maintained by the people in reverence for the powerful spirits of nature. | “Spirit-offerings” is bali. | The commentary explains “inner or outer” as inside or outside the town.

I have found this discussion about oblations and offerings to ancestors and deities:

AN4.61 “Worthy Deeds”: oblations to ancestors and deities are “worthy”?

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Ghosts of the Mountain - Mae Chee Kaew

[Mae Chee Kaew’s anagami fruition - #16 by LucasOliveira ]

(Mae Chee Kaew's anagami fruition - #16 by LucasOliveira)

Thank you for posting that link Lucas. Is there a full book of her experiences? I’d read a pdf - but I’d like that one in a hard copy :smiley:

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There are many sutta, it is basically stated when the deva is in human realm, they are practicing precepts, or precepts and samadhi hence they got into the path of deva realms.

See one of the example in sn 11.11

Mendicants, in a former life, when Sakka was a human being, he undertook seven good practices.

And it was because of undertaking these that he achieved the status of Sakka. What seven?

As long as I live, may I support my parents.
As long as I live, may I honor the elders in the family.
As long as I live, may I speak gently. As long as I live, may I not speak divisively.
As long as I live, may I live at home rid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, loving to let go, committed to charity, loving to give and to share.
As long as I live, may I speak the truth. As long as I live, may I be free of anger, or should anger arise, may I quickly get rid of it.
…

All these things are covered under n8fp of precepts as well.

Or this below an 2.36: which stated that deva developed their mind in human realm before they are born in higher realms.

Sāriputta, you might think:
‘Surely those deities, since so many of them can stand on the point of a needle without bumping up against each other, must have developed their minds in that place.’ But you should not see it like this. It was right here that those deities developed their minds.

Mind development covered under samadhi part of n8fp.

So all practice needs n8fp.

And there are many Buddha disciples that are born in sensual deva realm (stream enterer - see dn 21 ) or higher jhana realm (non returner an 3.127) from practicing n8fp.

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Mae Chee Kaew - Her Journey to Spiritual Awakening and Enlightenment

:anjal:

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Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but before Christ came on Earth there were already Psalms, such as Psalm 91 NKJV that make promise of angels guarding one.

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In many cultures (eastern and western) there are (were) cults to tutelary deities. These cults can be public or private, and passed down along to members of the same family or community along generations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutelary_deity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuladevata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares

The greek and roman deities seems, in many respects similar to their eastern counterparts.

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Yesterday I watched this video by Clear Mountain Monastery. It deals very much with the practical application and appreciation of recollection of devas.

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Yes, I just watched this as well. It’s as if the devas are listening. The aspect of perceiving light is interesting

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