Would the Buddha disagree with male ordination?

Recently on this forum someone asked the question, which I guess is of interest to some, whether the Buddha opposed female ordination. This topic has received wide attention, with books and essays by learned monks with inspiring and helpful titles like The Problems with Bhikkhunis. A question that has received much less attention is whether the Buddha disagreed with male ordination, or whether he would have disagreed with male ordination as practiced today.

History has shown us that male monks have repeatedly been guilty of severe and heinous crimes. The assassination of the Sri Lankan Prime Minister S. W. R. D. Bandaranaike by a male monk in 1959 should have been a warning sign. But since then we have seen male monks committing crimes that include murder, human trafficking, child abuse, rape, gun smuggling, drug trafficking, and financial scandals involving billions of dollars: to name but a few.

Surely the Buddha must have been capable of forseeing the depths of depravity that male monks would sink to in his following? Or would he have been more concerned with the possible violation of the letter of monastic procedures by females than with depraved and violent crimes committed by males? :thinking:

Given the self-evident fact that the male Sangha has shown far more interest and effort to highlight and prevent the threats and dangers to tradition posed by female ordination than in addressing any of the corruption found within the male Sangha, are we correct to conclude that this accurately represents the true wishes of the Buddha?

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There is a conspiracy theory. We are still not sure who did that. It is something like Kennedy assassination. We are not sure who is behind it. It appears someone dressed like a monk was there too.
Back to topic.

No.

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Many people believe Somarama was innocent. There was another man who I do not want to mention here as I do not know the whole story. There was another story in Sri Lanka that an innocent monk was accused of seducing a queen and was killed by pouring hot oil which caused the first recorded Tsunami in Sri Lanka about thousand years ago.
More details about the case.

Back to the topic.

The answer to the OP, I would say that Buddha will not disagree to male ordination, as he was well aware of the nature of the human. Devadatta even tries to kill Budda, which did not deter Buddha to carry on with his work.

With respect Bhante, I find this topic to be needlessly stirring the pot. Someone posted a bad question and it’s not the right play to come back with the opposite, equally as bad question.

Clearly, the Buddha agreed with both male and female ordination. The details may be controversial, but that fact shouldn’t be.

Maybe the question is bad, but perhaps the point is not. How much time, ink, effort, pain, etc has been wasted discussing what is IMO the non-issue of female ordination when all the while seriously awful things are happening in the (male) sangha?

I think that Buddhist males should put the majority of their effort into expecting and demanding more of the male sangha, investigating corruption, abuse and scandals, observing the conduct of the male sangha, and exposing the wide spread issues there, rather than being diverted into the domain of women’s role in Buddhism.

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So I’m the problem? Well, you’re probably right, and really, I should be used to it by now. Maybe it’s just my fate.

But since the point I was trying to make seems to have been lost—no doubt due to my bad writing!—let me spell it out. It’s satire. It’s not about ordination, it’s about double standards.

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I thought this was a good question. It’s my last day in Thailand. News of the day: a monk killed a samanera and buried him under a Buddha statue in the wat. A dispute over lottery tickets sold at the wat. Never mind what Dhammakaya is up to today.

I have the sense (taking into account the vibe of Bhante’s post) that if the Buddha came back as a human Buddha form in this day and age, he’d be apoplectic. He’d fire many of the abbots in Thailand, (save a few real saints here and many generally good monks), and appoint Ven. Dhammananda Bhikkhuni to run things in Thailand for a while. He’d also retain PwC to audit Dhammakaya and others of their ilk, to see where the money (and land and government property, and gold, and businesses) was, is and is going.

In other areas of society, once women gained equal status and were placed in charge, things run better. Less corruption, less greed, less petty behaviors. Less violence.

So, the Buddha might just toss the whole model in Thailand and start over. In this case, he’d reject male ordination until the men in Thailand could pass muster as ethical and renunciant monastics.

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History has shown us that male monks have repeatedly been guilty of severe and heinous crimes. The assassination of the Sri Lankan Prime Minister S. W. R. D. Bandaranaike by a male monk in 1959 should have been a warning sign. But since then we have seen male monks committing crimes that include murder, human trafficking, child abuse, rape, gun smuggling, drug trafficking, and financial scandals involving billions of dollars: to name but a few.

:))))))) I remembered that south korean buddhist monk with a mercedes parked behind the monastery, regularly going to the casino. The night he was caught on camera, he played 1 million out of monastery funds and actually won 2 million. At least in that night things went Ok :))

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Ahh, his merit must be ripening!


Though he won the 2 million at poker

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Oh. Guess that bounced off my thick skull. Thanks for clarifying.

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A buddhist head should be more like a dish antenna, not like the stone balls of Costa Rica

I’ve been writing on the web for so long, and obviously still don’t know how to do it properly! I am glad that you voiced your objections, and did so in a kind and respectful way.

This is getting beside the point, really, but I was kind of emotional this morning. I checked the news, and saw that today was the day that a benefit concert is being held for the girls who were murdered in Manchester.

When that happened a few weeks ago, it was so shocking for me, I was in tears. To think that such a thing could be done to young girls, just out for some fun. But I knew, as soon as I saw it, what it was for. It was no accident that young girls were being targeted. There’s nothing as threatening to small-minded men as independent women. I’ve seen the same sexism play out in Buddhism for so many years, it makes me sick to my soul.

Anyway, I just hope all the girls who go to the concert tonight will be safe and have a great time, and that in the end, love will win.

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I think we have to be equanimous on these issues. This is the nature of dependent origination. The World is at war. Many innocents are got killed everywhere every day. It seems we can do very little about it. See the number of views for the following program for seven years. Compare these to other Ted talks and views. People are turning the blind eye to the real issues.

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The patimokkha system has broken down. So it is best to let the rule of the land to apply to monks equally. We need to encourage people to be critical of unacceptable behaviour as they were during the Buddha’s day, when vinaya rules were laid down when people complained. There must be consequences of some sort. Equality must be integrated into the law and governance at every level. The layity support good monks more. It’s best to let the ‘market forces’ work and let corrupt situations die out. I think a few good monks is enough for a country than a corrupt million.

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This topic reminds me of one of my favorite things that Bhante @sujato has written:

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How to end corruption in politics here, some of which applies to Bhikkhus. Transparency, 3) in the list, can be promoted using the internet. https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/how_to_stop_corruption_5_key_ingredients

With metta

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@sujato An amazingly brave and fiercely biting post. I wish I hade a fraction of your writing skills and a fraction of your courage. The issues you raise go straight to the heart of the matter and do so in an elegant way. Satire is often lost though, just like irony.

Obviously Buddhism would have been much better off with female leaders as would the whole world. Duh. Who could possibly question that and why didn’t the Buddha see it?
P. S. Your honesty made me cry.

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