Would you take a Nibbana-pill?

Discussion
1

If scientists found just the perfect combination of neuro-stimulation, hormones, neurotransmitters and genetic activation to bring about an authentic nibbana, not different to one of an arahant, and put it into a pill - would you take it?

The first time I asked myself the question, I thought I wouldn’t take it - that I value the process, what I learn through it, the growing, the effort. But is there really a value to it? I’m not so sure any more…

To go even further, would the Buddha have opened a dispensary and freely give the pill to the ones who went forth? I don’t think he would have rejected scientific progress in general, script to write down the Dhamma for example, or medicine, or motorized transportation. So why not this?

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Perhaps I’ve been brainwashed by Big Dhamma but I think this whole concept relies too heavily on materialism and the belief that viññāṇa and nāma are produced by rūpa. It’s kind of like asking “What if there was a pill you could take to cross an ocean instead of using a boat or a plane?”

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Sure, that’s be great. It’s a big if though!

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Isn’t this craving for Nibbana?
Not having desire for the pill is the Nibbana.
Another point is Nibbana is not a thing. So what the pill going to do?

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It is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned… :slight_smile:

“‘This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said.

And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.’

The thought occurs to him, ‘I hope that I, too, will—through the ending of the fermentations—enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.’ Then he eventually abandons craving, having relied on craving.

‘This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
– AN4.159

And here we see Ananda teaching a Brahman how it is possible that one could abandon desire by means of desire:

“If that’s so, Master Ananda, then it’s an endless path, and not one with an end, for it’s impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire.”

“In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn’t you first have desire, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular desire allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you first have persistence, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular persistence allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you first have the intent, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular intent allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular act of discrimination allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis.
Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed.
Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed.
Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed.
Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed.
So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?”

"You’re right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. Magnificent, Master Ananda! Magnificent!
– SN51.15 (EN)

Fear not, crave for Nibbana as much as you want. :blush:

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Not having any desire for Nibbana is not Nibbana, but rather apathy.

Nibbana is something to strive for. Any desire for goodness, virtue, or purity, for that matter, is also something good.

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Trying to attain Nibbana by a pill is a clinging to rights and rituals.

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Well, maybe. But I think it’s important to think about what a “pill” of that kind would have to accomplish. Nibbana, as I understand it, is not simply some simple “experience” but a complex state of mind that includes the non-presence and non-occurrence of all of the many emotional habits and reaction-formations that constitute ordinary samsaric life, and includes instead the presence of purified, non-egoistic dispositions of the kind exemplified by the Buddha in his post-awakening vocation as a teacher.

It involves, for example, the gradual replacement of the quasi-egoistic personal relationship habits and dispositions involved in having “dear ones” to whom we cling, and whose lives we incorporate into our own I-making and my-making activities and entrenched self-concept, and whose loss by death or otherwise is experienced as a wrenching occasion of grief and dismay, by the purified and noble “emotions” of the brahma-viharas, which are some kind of completely non-clingy, suffering-free orientation of perfect good will toward others, and that do not result in grief when the impermanent objects of these purified emotions leave us for good or pass away.

So, my picture of the gradual path is that it involves the systematic dismantling of one complex mental edifice concurrently with the construction of a purified and ennobled replacement edifice. Once you have completed the process, your ongoing mental life feels a certain way. It feels liberated, peaceful, blissful and suffering-free. But, if the above picture is right, it is a mistake to identify the perfected state of nibbana simply with the way it feels to be in that state. The final culminating completion event, if such an event occurs - call it “satori” or whatever - is not the full event of “attaining nibbana”, but only the last bit of the process. I can imagine how a pill might create that final phenomenal experience of liberation, but it’s hard to imagine how the pill might accomplish all of the complex re-ordering and re-construction of one’s mental dispositions that make one a fully realized arahant. One might be totally blissed out and peaceful, but would one be able to respond skillfully to all of the life circumstances with which one is then presented? Would one be a sage? Or just a blissed out, but not very wise, ignoramus?

But yeah, all that said, if we are assuming miracle drugs that can accomplish the many fruits of the whole process at once … then sure. :slight_smile:

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Was Ananda a puthujjana or arahant when he gave this teaching? :slight_smile:

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If memory does not fail me Ananda’s suttas are usually placed in the timeline after the Parinibbana of the Blessed One. I risk saying his words were recorded as the words of an arahant. :slight_smile:

P.S.: In case anyone gets curious about Ananda’s story, this text is strongly recommended.

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Thanks. The text states the Buddha & Ananda were the same age. If so, I doubt the nun in AN4.159 had sexual lust for Ananda when he was more than 80 years old.

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Sorry, I don’t understand it. I can’t find in the sutta what you say, that the nun had lust for Ananda!

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AN 4.159 that you quoted “relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned” from. While not stated explicitly, the nun confessed to Ananda because she asked him to visit her due to her lust for him. She was not really sick. This is the common interpretation of this sutta. In the Chinese parallel, the nun is very explicit.

Then the nun—getting up from her bed, arranging her upper robe over one shoulder, and bowing down with her head at Ven. Ananda’s feet—said, “A transgression has overcome me, venerable sir, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to act in this way. May my lord Ananda please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future.”

“Yes, sister, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to act in this way. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future.”

Btw, if the Nibbana pill had permanent effects (i.e., no side effects/no withdrawal symptoms), I would take it. :slight_smile:

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Deeele,
So, could you please kindly state explicitly your point? Or confirm if it is roughly this:

  1. You read in between the lines of the sutta and assume Ananda’s words were recorded as the words of a non-enlightened one (i.e. they are not Dhamma). This is for you assume the nun was sexually desiring Ananda, and conclude he must have been young when the conversation took place.

  2. Henceforth, the sutta’s key messages - including “And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned” and "whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. " - is to be fully discarded.

Sorry, but this sound a little bit of a stretch.

Plus, the transgression could be just that she was feeling lazy. Although I do not understand Pali very well, I read she is just saying to Ananda: forgive for the trouble, I am being foolish, childish, I shall now practice according to the Dhamma.

Last but not least, mind that Ananda adds to his statements the important bit of:

iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ.
"Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."

This indicates moreover this was not his idea but something he heard and was explaining further as he was taught, very much likely by the Buddha!

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The question is in a way funny, but it has serious undertones. Of course it’s absolutely materialistic as @raivo mentions. And personally I don’t believe such a pill could ever be done, I mean like never ever. But it’s a thought experiment. And I think in our answers a whole lot of attitude towards the Dhamma and liberation resonates through

Let’s have another thought experiment. Let’s stay, a Buddha arises in our time and age, and he could read minds and assess the student’s potential perfectly. And I knew that if I went to him, he could perfectly explain satipatthana so that indeed after a week of development I could attain final knowledge - just as the sutta says. Would I go and do that? Or would @SarathW1 not go because it would be craving for nibbana?

I’m sure many people would say ‘But that is an entirely different matter!’ - Is it though? Isn’t that the same pill in the form of a perfect teacher? There is a difference, but what is it exactly? Are not many people in love with the idea that they do it ‘by themselves’? And if somebody/something else did it for them, it would ‘spoil it’?

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[quote=“gnlaera, post:14, topic:3468”]
You…assume Ananda’s words were recorded as the words of a non-enlightened one (i.e. they are not Dhamma).[/quote]

Correct. This is my personal view on this sutta. For me, there are lots of muddled teachings in it, not only the craving (‘tanha’) part.

As for ‘chanda’ (unlike ‘tanha’), this is generally regarded as wholesome or unwholesome.

[quote=“gnlaera, post:14, topic:3468”]
This is for you assume the nun was sexually desiring Ananda…[/quote]
This is what Bhikkhu Bodhi states in his AN footnote, including reference to the Chinese parallel.

OK…back to topic. :slight_smile:

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Thanks for clarifying Deeele. :slight_smile:

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Well what I am saying is this idea for a pill to attain Nibbana is equate to desire for annihilation.

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Hm, why not to take the pill as the idea of a cure?

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On the topic, I reckon no pill would be able to do the trick. This is for the fruition is all about convergence of the path factors. And here I quote Ajahn Pannavadho:

Rather, the Path is set up as a mode of transcendence. When we have done the work to set the Path up correctly, it acts like a channel for transcendent states of mind to arise—Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmī, Anāgāmī and Arahant.

Because of that, all the path factors arise simultaneously. It is a difficult feat to accomplish because we must get all of those factors just right at the same moment. Having done the work, when the right conditions arise, they will all come together and bring forth the path moment.

In order to accomplish this, we must gradually develop all of the conditions which are necessary for that moment to take place. It involves not only formal meditation practice but all of our activities throughout the day. Effort and wisdom must be present at all times in order to turn every situation into Dhamma.

To begin with, we should first develop the path factors individually.

That’s necessary. When those factors are well developed, then our practice will be strong. When it is strong enough, the factors can join together to act as a bridge crossing to the other side—for example, from the path moment of Sotāpanna to its fruition.

Although it is necessary to develop the factors of the Path individually, we mustn’t think that those factors themselves are the Path. The Path only arises when all eight factors have been perfected. Emphasizing that all the factors are “Right” in effect means they are perfect. Once they are in perfect harmony, the path moment takes place.

So in order to fully realize the Path, we must train ourselves in all of the path factors until they are strong enough to go beyond. But the Path is a lot more than just a way of training, for it is through the Path that the goal is directly experienced.

– Source: http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/english/pdf/Uncommon_Wisdom.pdf1

A Nibbana-pill, as described at the beginning of this thread - a “perfect combination of neuro-stimulation, hormones, neurotransmitters and genetic activation to bring about an authentic nibbana” - would maybe only help in terms of facilitating right mindfulness and right stillness / samadhi.

One would still need to come up with a pill that deals with the rest of the path factors! :blush: