Sorry about that, but I explained the reasons in the first post of this thread. When I saw that the original thread looked like it might blow up into another huge discussion (Note I posted it as an essay, not a “discussion”), then to preserve the usability of the thread as a re-usable and frequently accessed reference, I requested that it be closed. If you’ve participated in other jhana related thread on SCDD, you know what it’s like when the threads get long and cached, it’s really unwieldy to access specific posts.
On MN 19, I agree with you that it’s best to let one’s meditative experience determine exactly what one can get away with on the other side of second jhana. That is, once we have a competent second jhana, then explore exactly how far you can take discursive thinking in first jhana while still having a sense of continuity. As a simile, if second jhana were driving 60mph on a smooth paved road, first jhana might be like downshifting into first jhana, going off road in bumpy wilderness terrain, going maybe 10-15mph continuously, without stopping.
I can go much more in depth on MN 19, but it would help if you first share your thoughts on the elephant in the room, MN 125, so I can gauge what approach to take.
B.Sujato explaining how vicāra’s “keeping the mind connected” dropping out after first jhana:
Then why would moggallana, one of the mightiest masters of samadhi, need to do this in first and second jhana: SN 40.1, 40.2, b.bodhi trans:
“Then, friends, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered and dwelt in the first jhāna…. While I dwelt therein perception and attention accompanied by sensuality assailed me.277 “”
6“Then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by means of spiritual power and said this: ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna, do not be negligent, brahmin, regarding the first jhāna. Steady your mind in the first jhāna, unify your mind in the first jhāna, concentrate your mind in the first jhāna.’ Then, friends, on a later occasion, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered and dwelt in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.
- The Second Jhāna
1… “Here, friends, while I was alone in seclusion, a reflection arose in my mind thus: ‘It is said, “the second jhāna, the second jhāna.” What now is the second jhāna?’279 “”
2“Then, friends, it occurred to me: ‘Here, [264] with the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. This is called the second jhāna.’
3“Then, friends, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I entered and dwelt in the second jhāna…. While I dwelt therein perception and attention accompanied by thought and examination assailed me.
Not only does he need to “keep the mind connected” (b.sujato’s vicara), he needs to “place the mind” (b.sujato’s vitakka) again to deal with any hindrance that can disturb and affect the quality of each jhana.
But if we understand V&V as thought & examination, then no logical problem here.
One of the key problems with B.Sujato’s V&V (placing the mind, keeping it connected) is it’s too raw and low level of a function, too necessary for mental functioning, and can’t drop out after first jhana. It’s operating at the same level as paying attention to perceptions (sañña, manasi karoti). Just as perceptions and attention, viriya/energy are needed in all four jhanas and don’t drop out after the first jhana, B.Sujato’s V&V (placing the mind, keeping it connected) can not drop out.
AN 8.63, with 3 types of samadhi even dropping out V&V more gradually prior to second jhana, the suttas that mention the difference between directed (with V&V) and undirected (no V&V) samadhi, and the 7sb (awakening factor) suttas, are all different ways about how to get into the four jhanas. V&V needs to be coherent and work in all of those situations. With B. Sujato’s V&V translation, the pieces don’t fit together, just as in Vism. VRJ (redefined jhana), 4sp, 4jhana, 7sb, directed and undirected samadhi, don’t fit together and cohere. Once the integrity of V&V is violated, then it’s like turning the other models (4sp, 7sb, 3 ways of samadhi, 4ip-iddhipada, etc) into vestigial organs. Like man breasts that don’t produce milk. You want the babies to survive and grow up healthy. All the nipples (I’m thinking of something like a dog here with many pups nursing) need to work, not just one nipple for the cryptic reimagined jhana formula.