Draft translation of the Dhammacakka

Translations
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[quote=“LXNDR, post:6, topic:439”]
in the first case it’s awakening to something which didn’t exist before but was discovered through awakening and constitutes its very subject[/quote]

alright, to me though it makes perfect sense in the light of the Buddha’s description of his awakening as discovery of the causes of suffering and the Way to its cessation, at least for the present aeon, and the fact of his teaching it

all the more so as such understanding is kind of corroborated in your rendition by the phrase

regarding these principles that were not learned from another

in Ven Thanissaro’s rendition and by similar forms in versions of a few other translators

with regard to things never heard before

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html

[quote=“LXNDR, post:6, topic:439”]
for the sake of style and consistency maybe it would be better to still have it interpreted with an English word[/quote]

if concentration is out of question, then, being aware of limited adequacy of any other English term, maybe one pointedness of mind, composure, absorption

samadhi is fine by itself, but mentioned as an item in a list of English terms it’s percieved alien to a degree

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12

Yes, and also any pleasure from memories, expectations, and the like regarding the five senses.

The Pali term is gamma, which is an abstract noun derived from gāma, meaning “village”. So it literally means “of or relating to the village”.

I’m not enamored of “vulgar”, which was used by Nyanamoli; it is a bit classist and old fashioned. I could try “bogan”, but that wouldn’t work well outside of Australia. :wink: Perhaps “crass” would be better; in fact, let me put that in there!

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13

This rendering is, I think, obscuring the point. The term is anussuta. suta means “heard”, of course, but idiomatically it means “learned”. But why the anu? It has the sense of “after, following, along”, and here it must mean “from another”. In other words, this is not an oral tradition passed down, it is the Buddha’s own experience.

Sorry, just as bad as “concentration”, if not worse. The Buddha describes the mind in samādhi as “vast as the ocean”, “abundant, grown great, measureless”. It could hardly be further from “one-pointed”.

This is possibly the best English rendering, but it hardly caprtures the exalted nature of samādhi. To be composed is to have it together, to not be flustered. Good things, to be sure, but a long way from samādhi.

Sometimes used as a rendering of jhāna. It’s okay, I don’t have any great problems with it. But the real meaning of jhāna is rather “illumination”.

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14

:pray:

Dear Bhante,

Thank you very much!!

with reverence, respect, and gratitude,
russ

:pray:

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Dear Bhante

For ‘samadhi’…what about the way Ajahn Brahm translates it? As ‘stillness’. Stillness can be simple but it can also become powerful and deep. Though perhaps the word doesn’t convey this potential for deepening. Hmm…yes, perhaps you’re right to leave it untranslated.

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Stillness is okay sometimes, but not really exalted enough. The only word that works for me in English would be “coalescence”. I think that is pretty good in terms of meaning, but it is not easy to make it work.

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oooh…nice…like “stillness coalescing”…to coin a phrase: “the gathering stillness”.

Also, I think perhaps ‘coalescence’ also doesn’t have the sense of something exalted.

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Interesting, I like the “gathering stillness”. Problem is, though, that it’s not easy to get more “purple” phrases like this working across multiple contexts. They need to be handled very carefully.

Or we could use something more down to earth like, “coming together” (props to the Beatles, of course).

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Okay first, and please may no one hold it against me, I’m pretty much musically illiterate and thus the Beatles reference just washed right through me! :confused:

Mmm…“coming together”…mmm…I dunno… It’s in the realm of not being exalted enough again…

Perhaps Bhante, leaving it untranslated, you could then use some of these terms and phrases in the notes? So giving a sense of what Samadhi might mean, or rather feel like. It seems difficult to find a phrase or word that will work well at all levels and as you say, in ‘multiple contexts’.

Are you planning to do a brief ‘introduction/write up’ about all the Pali words that will be left untranslated?

Love your work! :slight_smile:

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i’m all for it, at least it’s not “getting back in the USSR”

enjoy :wink:

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21

Dear Bhante,

I have always preferred “common” or “ordinary” for gamma. This is what “relating to the village” means to me, and it is also the original meaning of vulgar. Bhikkhu Bodhi uses “common” in the Anguttara.

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22

i wonder whether village and vulgar are cognate words with the root being vlg

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Hi Bhante
In the introduction you have used Buddha rather than the more normal “Blessed One” which for me somehow removes the gravitas of what is to follow (or is it the word staying?). Monastics isn’t a word I have come across very often, why not “monks” or Bhikkus? is “Deer Page” a typo?
All in all excellent though.

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Whenever I talk about suttas, or even read them aloud, I stumble over using “Blessed One”, it just isn’t normal English. It feels weird. Often I just substitute “Buddha”, because, well, that’s what we call the person that we’re talking about. As to gravitas, I think the bigger problem is not making the suttas feel too pompous and stiff. Gravitas, if any is lost (which I’m not feeling myself in this case), we have plenty of.

Yes, it’s a bit weird. Anandajoti and Analayo have recently argued, I think correctly, that the term “bhikkhus” is used in the suttas, as well as referring specifically to male monastics, to refer to monastics in general, including bhikkhunis (just as “men” is used in English). So avoidng unnecessary gender issues is a good thing. On the other hand, as you say, “monastic” is not standard spoken English, although we use it quite a bit these days. (“We” meaning those of us in monastic communities who care about not being sexist). One could argue that “monk” can serve as a non-gendered term (like, say, “actor”), since in Buddhist countries they are quite happy to speak of “female monks”. As an alternative, we could always use “Hesychasts”

That’s pretty embarrassing. Yes, better now!

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Bhante, this passage is creating some confusion in terms of the way it’s worded. Part of said confusion lies in the lack of a pronoun or speaker; for instance Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation reads,

So long, bhikkhus, as my knowledge and vision of these Four Noble Truths…

It seems that the addition of this single pronoun brings some clarity to the passage itself and lessens the confusion surrounding the double-negative of “not purified” and “not declare.”

Just a thought, hopefully it’s somewhat helpful. :blush:

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Thanks, interesting point. It is a long and complex sentence, and I had thought maybe to break it up, but couldn’t find a convenient way of doing so. Actually, the “my” is in the text, I should have included it. (yāvakīvanca me…) Consider it done.

I’m also not happy with “knowledge and vision in accordance with reality”. It’s clumsy. How to improve? It seems to me that the idiom of “knowledge and vision” is so important for Buddhism that we have to keep it pretty straight. yathābhūta is more problematic. The normal translation “of things as they really are” is philosophically misleading. It’s not about seeing an underlying ultimate reality, it’s about discerning causal principles. Bhūta means “become”, and refers to what has been produced by causal principles, especially dependent origination. And there is no “things” in the original. Literally we could say “as it has become” or “as it happened”. Bhūta also has a nuance of “truth”, hence my “in accordance with reality.” But surely there is a better way of putting this? Perhaps “verified”?

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:pray:

Dear Bhante,

I’m also not happy with “knowledge and vision in accordance with reality”. It’s clumsy. How to improve? It seems to me that the idiom of “knowledge and vision” is so important for Buddhism that we have to keep it pretty straight. yathābhūta is more problematic. The normal translation “of things as they really are” is philosophically misleading. It’s not about seeing an underlying ultimate reality, it’s about discerning causal principles. Bhūta means “become”, and refers to what has been produced by causal principles, especially dependent origination. And there is no “things” in the original. Literally we could say “as it has become” or “as it happened”. Bhūta also has a nuance of “truth”, hence my “in accordance with reality.” But surely there is a better way of putting this? Perhaps “verified”?

How about “conformant with” or “congruent with”?

with reverence, respect, and gratitude,
russ

:pray:

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Does it help to add “that is”? - “knowledge and vision that is in accordance with reality”.

“that I had awakened to the supreme awakening” - Doesn’t read that well in my opinion.

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Yeah, not realy happy with any of the suggestions.

“Awakened to the supreme awakening” is terrible, I should never have allowed that! It’s a common idiom in Pali that a verb and noun form are used side by side for emphasis, but you can’t translate it that way. I’ll try something more radical, see if you like.

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Dear Bhante,

many thanks for sharing the translation! After reading the sutta and the replies, I think that every reader will favor a certain wording over another, because this specific wording conveys a pasrticular meaning for that person. Hence, as long as the word is not too much off, it will start “to carry the meaning” it is supposed to have, if it is used consistently and people will get used to it after having read a few pages.

Having said that, I still cannot resist to mention that I am not happy with the word ‘monastic’. I also remember from a sutta class given by Ajahn Brahm on MN128 that the Buddha addresses the group of three with “I hope you are all keeping well, Anuruddha, …”. He just addresses the most senior one but obviously means all three. Ajahn Brahm explained that the term “bhikkhus” used in the suttas also addresses the hierarchically most prominent group of “bhikkhus” first, but also means to include “bhikkhunīs” and laywomen as well as laymen. The word monastics , as I understand it, however, tries to include monks and nuns, but does not include laity. (Which I find a bit sad.)

How about translating “bhikkhus” with any of these terms:
“followers” or “meditators” or “trainees” (I admit, these are also not perfect…)

In the context of the present sutta, I found the wording “group of five ‘ascetics’” quite appropriate, because, as I imagine the situation, the five were not yet ordained when the teaching was given? (This can be disputed however, because some scholars seem to hold the view that the sutta comprises several teachings given in a series of several days. So somewhere along the line the five may well be considered as the first five monastics…)

Also, “galaxy” (*) somehow does not seem to reflect the meaning of “world system” with sense-sphere, form and formless realms, because galaxy would, in my understanding of its meaning, refer to a physical system. Such a ‘bunch of stars’ would in my understanding always refer to a material realm. Why not simply use “world”, or “realm”, or “realms” which might be a bit more open.

(However, I am aware that I am not a native English speaker, so the connotation I give to some of the words might not be according to their common use.)

I am not really passionate about any of the other terms and I could also get used to “monastics” and “galaxy”. (However, I am very happy that you do not plan to use the sanskritized versions of “dhamma” and “nibbāna” and that you want to leave certain terms untranslated.)

Mnay thanks and with much mettā,
Robert

(*) I thought you mentioned translating “world system” as “galaxy” in one of the previous posts under “translating the four nikāyas”, but looking for it now, I cannot find the passage anymore. So, if I confused something, please ignore the comment.

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