There is a quote out there (not from the EBTs) that goes essentially:
The difference between a Buddha and a rock
is that a Buddha has metabolism
and a rock does not have metabolism.
What do you think of the above quote?
There is a quote out there (not from the EBTs) that goes essentially:
The difference between a Buddha and a rock
is that a Buddha has metabolism
and a rock does not have metabolism.
What do you think of the above quote?
@Coemgenu That phrase caught my attention as well
Iâll give it a bit of a go⊠Am really interested what others think as well
Buddha
Rock
Is the Buddha âsubjectâ to âdeathâ? He seems to talk a lot about being free from it.
They recently found rocks that had spontaneously agreed among themselves to create their very own nuclear reactor. And so they did. Also, my compost heap is very much full of dead stuff, but it certainly has a metabolism as well. Perhaps there is no difference between a Buddhaâs body and a rock and this postâthey all go⊠âŠpoofâŠ
How about this reframing of the OP:
Is this:
The difference between a Buddha and a rock
is that a Buddha has metabolism
and a rock does not have metabolism.
âŠa horrible misunderstanding of selflessness, or a correct understanding of selflessness?
No more lives = No more deaths
A Buddha was born via dependent origination, and was doomed to not be born again via the same principle, having crossed the threshold of awakening.
What about a rock?
Well, you linked me to the ĆÄlistambasĆ«tra just recently on another thread there. That sĆ«tra has all sorts of strangeness to say concerning what is and what isnât (mostly what is) dependently originated.
But that seem to be a sectarian abnormality, right?
Hereâs what it says:
Furthermore,. this conditioned arising arises from two(principles). From what two (principles does it arise)? From a causal relation and a conditional relation. Moreover, it should be seen as two-fold: objective and subjective.
What, then, is the causal relation in objective conditioned arising? It is as when a sprout comes from a seed, from the sprout a leaf, from the leaf a shoot, from the shoot a stalk, from the stalk (a swelling, from the swelling)*a bud, from the bud (a calyx, from the calyx) a flower, and from the flower a fruit. When there is no seed, a sprout does not occur, and so on until: when there is no flower,a fruit does not occur. But when there is a seed, the development of a sprout occurs, and soon until: when there is a flower, the development of a fruit occurs. It does not occur to the seed, âI cause the sprout to develop.â Nor does it occur to the sprout, âI am developed by the seedâ, and soon until: it does not occur to the flower, âI cause thefruit to developâ. Nor does it occur to the fruit, âI am developed by the flowerâ. But still, when there is a seed, the development, the manifestation of the sprout occurs, and so on until: when there is a flower, the development, the manifestation of the fruit occurs. Thus is the causal relation in objective conditioned arising to be seen.
How is the conditional relation in objective conditioned arising to be seen? As the coming together of six factors. As the coming together of what six factors? Namely, as the coming together of the earth, water, heat, wind, space and season factors is the conditional relation in objective conditioned arising to be seen.
There in, the earth-factor performs the function of supporting the seed. The water-factor waters the seed. The heat-factor matures the seed. The wind-factor brings out the seed. The space-factor performs the function of not obstructing the seed. Season performs the function of transforming the seed. Without these conditions, the development of the sprout from the seed does not occur. But when the objective earth-factor is not deficient, and likewise the water, heat, wind, space and season factors are not deficient, then from the coming together of all these, when the seed is ceasing the development of the sprout occurs.
It does not occur to the earth·factor, âI perform the function of supporting the seedâ, and so on until: it does not occur to season, âI perform the function of transforming the seedâ. Nor does it occur to the sprout, âI am born by way of these conditionsâ, But still, when there are these conditions, when the seed is ceasing the development of the sprout occurs. And this sprout is not self made, not made by another, not made by both, not made by God, not transformed by time,â not derived from prakrti, not founded upon a single principle, (yet not arisen without cause). From the coming together of the earth, water. heat, wind,space and season factors, when the seed is ceasing the development of the sprout occurs. Thus is the conditional relation in objective conditioned arising to be seen.
(ĆÄlistambasĆ«tra)
What do you think of it? Twofold conditioned arising. The negation of both phenomenal and personal substantiality. It is very interesting. It reads like Madhyamaka.
It is a very bare metaphysics. âEven objective things are arisen causally. It doesnât occur to their components to be self aware of their causation [being insentient].â
The most Madhyamaka-esque passage immediately follows the one above:
Therein objective conditioned arising is to be seen according to five principles. What five? Not as eternity, not as annihilation, not as transmigration (of any essence), as the development of a large fruit from a small cause, and as (a result) bound to be similar to that (its cause)
I am trying to remember where, but there is a passage in Venerable CandrakirtÄ«âs MadhyamakÄvatÄra that has an emptiness-exegesis almost verbatim to the one above. Itâs a commentary on MĆ«lamadhyamakakÄrikÄ, I wonder if Venerable NÄgÄrjuna was quoting the ĆÄlistamba?
For further context, the ĆÄlistambasĆ«traâs twofold conditioned arising, if one reads further along in the document, is not exceptionally irregular with regards to that which is subjectively dependently originated. That exposition has the familiar 12 nidÄnÄni.
can you explain what you mean by your statement that a rock is âNot subject to conditioning?â
To take a simple example, if you hit a rock with a hammer it may break, so it is obviously affected by external conditions to which it is subjected. Or do you mean something different by âNot subject to conditioning?â
I strongly recommend checking SN22.85 on the topic of the OP:
âReverend Yamaka, suppose they were to ask you: âWhen their body breaks up, after death, what happens to a perfected one, who has ended the defilements?â How would you answer?â
âSir, if they were to ask this, Iâd answer like this:
âReverend, form is impermanent. Whatâs impermanent is suffering.
Whatâs suffering has ceased and ended. Feeling ⊠perception ⊠choices ⊠consciousness is impermanent.
Whatâs impermanent is suffering. Whatâs suffering has ceased and ended.â
Thatâs how Iâd answer such a question.â
Being a bit of an ignostic, I looked up the word metabolism and found:
metabolism: the chemical processes that occur within a living organism in order to maintain life.
So yeah, that is a fundamental difference between a rock and any living organism I guess. What the OP quote suggests then can be rewritten as:
The difference between a Buddha and a rock is that a Buddha is alive and a rock is not alive.
Well I guess that is a difference between a (pre-passed-away) Buddha and a (pre-disintegrated) rock.
For me, it gives us nothing new to reflect on. It doesnât even scratch the surface of dhamma, or indeed biology. Where does it come from?
So this is an interesting one for me. Does a Buddha not create kamma? Or is it that a Buddha always creates kamma that is neither-dark-nor-light? Has anyone got any sutta passages that address this?
The kamma that is neither bright or dark is the eightfold path, and it leads to ending of kamma:
"And what are neither dark nor bright deeds with neither dark nor bright results, which lead to the ending of deeds(kamma)?
Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.
These are called neither dark nor bright deeds with neither dark nor bright results, which lead to the ending of deeds. "
âHe is the Buddha, with defilements ended,
untroubled, with doubts cut off.
He has attained the end of all karma,
freed with the end of attachments.â
âAnd what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma?
When one reaches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action, and mental action, this is called the cessation of kamma.
âAnd what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of kamma?
It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
âThus, bhikkhus, I have taught old kamma, I have taught new kamma, I have taught the cessation of kamma, I have taught the way leading to the cessation of kamma."
Venerable Puññaji has a radical (?) interpretation of selflessness that calls into question the sentience and freewill of âsentientâ beings. The quote is an adaption from him.
But one can see this discourse coming from more areas than TheravÄda modernism. Zen Buddhism, as much as it can sometimes have a âPrimordial Mindâ or âTrue Mindâ proto-heresy, sometimes interprets selflessness as mindlessness.
Consider Venerable DĆgen in his ShĆbĆgenzĆ. He also draws a parallel between the Buddha and the rocks, trees, and grass.
Some say that the Buddhas are like great good unthinking salvation machines, mechanically and reflexively laying out the pure dharmas of the path.
So the quote comes from TheravÄda modernism, but it could easily also he a Zen quote.
For added context: two exegeses of the dependently originated by Venerable Puññaji. This is not an exegesis like we necessarily encounter in the early Buddhist texts:
I would prefer this doesnât become a âVen Puññaji vs [orthodox interpretations of] the suttÄniâ thread, though. Comparative ventures in the subject though, are very fertile, so if people want to discuss the Venerableâs idiosyncrasies as compared to X or Y understanding of the suttÄni, perhaps another thread would be better to do so in.
Good spot Stu
I suppose I replied in a light-hearted way. I was meaning not bright and not dark kamma⊠ie not adding any new kamma.
@Gabriel_L thanks for the thorough info