As I understand the rule regarding ‘schism in the sangha’ is related to a sangha not the Sangha. Ie a single community not the Maha-Sangha. This would be community of monks or a community of nuns (at least 4)
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Is it so that bhikkhunis are barred from certain practices of the Noble Eightfold Path? Are there “males only” kinds of practice?
The human nature is “fighting”, right. For something. There will be always what to fight for. This is a kind of craving and/or aversion.
Interesting to see how easily a distraction gains traction! Of course, it is difficult to make the call as to where it is best to let pointless babble just peter out on it’s own accord (alas, more than likely, over course of a full generation or more in the case of this particular issue) and where to take up and examine curious ideas that could perhaps do well for additional perspective.
Given that in many places the bhikkhuni sangha is barred from existing, the answer kind of has to be yes, indeed, bhikkhunis (by the logical necessity of non-existence precluding all activity) are barred from practising the Noble Eightfold Path. But this, perhaps, is more a linguistic point.
A further more practical point might be that, if in those places where their existence is to some degree or other recognised, but the surrounding culture leads to a critical lack in the provision of basic requisites then, in effect, yes again, it could be said that bhikkhunis are barred from practising the Noble Eightfold Path as bhikkhunis.
But, of course, if your point is that there is nothing in the Noble Eightfold Path that laywomen can’t endeavour to cultivate then, as a self-contained point, I’d most certainly agree.
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I think this is a blessing in disguise.
Buddha has given the best opportunity for the female to attain the liberation faster than men.
Elimination of self identification is the harderst thing.
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Is this true. “Buddha has given the best opportunity for the female to attain the liberation faster than men”?
If it is not true why say it?
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Incorrect. Middle path is the ‘best’ way to liberation. That means neither self-glorification nor self-deprecating. When you have the years of experience and ordination and a junior is placed above you on basis of sex, that is deprecating, therefore not middle way, no matter how anyone wants to sell it.
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Greetings,
I’ve been lurking here for a little while. I found this thread, as well as a few others on here alarming in relation to the mostly male views on Bhikkunis.
The whole status of Bhikkunis and their striving for legitimacy, respect and support hurts me. I feel they have inherited a bum deal and I truly wish that in a hundred years time, when the seeds of these new Bhikkuni communities have bloomed that this nonsensical patriarchal bent which undermines them today will fade into the distance. Surely, by sheer fact of one ‘going forth’ and abstaining from pro-creating and sexual pleasures, the notion of gender for monastics must in theory evaporate and render them in essence ‘genderless’. So if that is the case this suppressing and undermining of Bhikkunis looks even more ludicrous.
I myself have witnessed elderly Bhikkunis serve young novices food and then proceed to take their meals in a completely different room to the Bhikkus in a monastery. And you know what, as a male layperson staying at the monastery - I found this very insulting to these women and it made me uncomfortable.
All these frightened notions of imaginary ‘schisms’ tearing apart a Sangha also seem equally ludicrous to me. All institutions, over time develop a skewed sense of control and power due to hermetically sealed containers these ecosystems exist within. And buddhism, being an institution - is no different. And how challenging the monastic community’s misogynist views will hurt the Dhamma is beyond me, it will only help it spread further by being more inclusive to women. So yes, if old power structures need to be abandoned and institutions refreshed for the sake of equality or justice, bring on your imaginary schisms.
And to you Bhikkunis out there striving forth in face of the the sillyness, I leave you with some wisdom from the great Hunter S. Thompson - “Don’t take any guff from these swine”.
Will love,
x
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Wouldn’t lining up according to the number of rains retreats be reasonable?
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No. it is nothing to do with eating.
It is true.
Buddha sat on a bunch of grass no in an extravagant chair.
I have seen some Buddhist monks sit on overly decorated chairs and I think this is unnecessary.
I know monks are not to be blamed but the lay people who provide them. But monks should educate the lay people with these unnecessary expenses. I think there are some restriction on how monks used their beds and chairs.
Well then flip a coin. Who cares? Why base it on some gender-based pecking order?
Well then introduce first come first serve rule and see what happens when you see starving monks scramble on each other to obtain food. Josep Goldstein always comments on the way participants lining up for food.
Monks are expected to practice the loth some of the food. Not to complain about weather they are served before the kids.
This is what you wrote
“Buddha has given the best opportunity for the female to attain the liberation faster than men.”
Is that true? Please explain?
I don’t see how this relates to the conversation
I kind of get why this thread is named “A distraction”
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Ooops, I think I might need to clarify here, in case it isn’t clear (at your remark I just realised that very alternative readings are available). I am responsible for the title; I rather quickly separated Sarath’s “idiosyncratic” jabs in the early hours from what was otherwise a mature and rich conversation, as they and the comments they attracted distracted from said conversation and took the thread well off-topic.
As an aside, my own personal hope was that in the surrounding community would here apply the suggestion in the guidelines to “Engage in discussions that make this forum an interesting place to be — and avoid those that do not” and that the thread would enjoy a happy, speedy death along with the pernicious views that drive it. But evidently the line of consideration still proves interesting and I understand why.
I guess that’s fair enough, so long as it doesn’t railroad more worthwhile discussions.
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Exactly. So then choose something simple. Alphabetical order perhaps. Why are you bending over backward to defend silly gendered rules?
I think it is much easier if we throw the whole Vinaya rules to the garbage bin and carry on as we fit.
Because this Vinaya rules does not apply to the 21st century.
What an extreme reaction, and a straw man argument.
Why are the monks comfortable with eating before hungry children? Because extreme needs are probably taken care of as seen, and to teach respect. This then leads to why 10 or 8 precept nuns before bhikkhunis. To teach respect and contempt, and the latter violates the very spirit of the Sangha the Buddha designed.
If you actually believe there is some rightness in men before women or gender above all, one should be warned by concerned Buddhists, that this puts ego and clinging to impermanence above the Buddha’s guidance and instruction.
Maybe only kamma will instruct in some cases.
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I suspect that when discussing these questions people start to forget that this separation by sex was set by the Buddha himself, and I have no doubts in the power of his equanimity. Yes, he clearly stated that no matter which sex you have or ancestry or caste, all are equal in terms of ability to reach the Liberation. However, the sangha is divided into two. I do trust in his wisdom to organize it this way. I suspect this division comes from reasons far from spiritual development and has something to do with humans themselves. If it were better to mix men and women together, he would do it. What do you think?
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We really do not know how the Vinaya is developed to present day format. My point is some monks and nuns are paying too much attention to unwanted political matters. In my opinion, the real distractors are those monks and nuns, not me. I rather spend my time on more relevant Dhamma discussions rather than these fruitless arguments.