A twelve week course on Pali for serious students by Bhante Sujato

[christie]

@johnk

Totally true. The example sentences and vocabulary in PP are not from the suttas, and are often not representative. That’s why the Gair and Karunatillake, “A New Course in Reading Pāḷi”, is much better. All the exercises are canonical. The only thing in PP I think is useful for beginners is for those people learning Pāli who are unfamiliar with concepts like nominative, accusative, genitive, etc., it provides a gentle introduction to the idea of noun declensions. In that case, drop it after the first 8 chapters or so and move on to G&K or something else.

Both Gillian and Stephen said that Warder is not really a good beginner Pāli, despite it’s title, and I agree. But that’s what Bhante has chosen to use for this course, so stay with it, and just ignore (for now) what is not understandable, and comeback and go through it again later, when many things will fall better into place.

Thanks so much, John, that is very helpful.

I had already done about half of PP before I started Warder, and I found it didn’t really help me understand the suttas. In fact, it gave me a false confidence that Pali grammar was very straightforward and logical, and I got very confused when the suttas contained constructions that I wasn’t familiar with.

I found after doing 12 lessons of Warder and a few lessons in G&K I am much more confident in tackling some of the suttas. I have just finished reading through the passages in Rune’s book that Bhante Sujato listed as a reading prerequisite and I found apart from a few really difficult sentences, I was able to parse the sentences (with the help of the accompanying vocabulary lists). So, kudos to Bhante Sujato for choosing Warder as the text book for this course, it has really helped me (despite it being quite dense and frustrating sometimes).

I chose those 3 examples precisely because I didn’t think they were covered in PP, that’s why I was very surprised when Gillian said I should be referencing PP.

PS: I really like your rationalisation of yena … tena - makes a lot of sense to me (although I think you have the agent and the patient reversed - it doesn’t help that both are nominative). I also tried to rationalise the genitive absolutive as “however, the body (of me that did work) becomes tired.” Thanks for giving those references to G&K for my examples - I will certainly look them up. I have also started reading the “Buddha’s Discourses in Pali” - you are right, this is an excellent book and the trilinear approach helps enormously.

[johnk]

@christie

PS: I really like your rationalisation of yena … tena - makes a lot of sense to me (although I think you have the agent and the patient reversed

You’re right. That’s what happens when one does something in a rush!
It should have read “The deva, a non-human, by which place the Tathāgatha (is), by that (place) approaches.”

[asci]

Hi Christie,

your questions and experiences are very motivating. I am just more of a beginner than you I guess, since I just went through Warder till lesson four so far, working with the “Learn Pali”-YouTube-lessons recommended above alongside. The author of the LP-series has also a Pali blog which may appeal to you since he practices the tri-linear format you just mentioned. Maybe you found this already:

Attadanda Sutta Snp 4.15 | Translation guide

Thanks a lot also to John Kelly for the hint to the Bodhi-Pali book, I just ordered it and hope it will improve my learning and fill the study with even greater joy.

I am also looking forward to the announced discussion forum for the Pali study group, where we can discuss our questions of translation and grammar as just started in this thread.

[CoreyJ]

I am in the same boat. I just included my email in the designated field and am hoping that was enough.

[josephzizys]

I have also not received any email?

[christie]

@johnk

Correlative : See G&K II.6 (p.24)
Genitive Absolute: See G&K, X.1 (p.138)
And as to the yena … tena … construction, it’s very idiomatic, and can’t really be explained with a grammatical breakdown. Just get familiar with it as it it comes up very, very frequently in the canon! See G&K VI.10 for a brief description.

Hi John, just to let you know I finally had a chance to look these up last night and the explanations are very useful. I am starting to get the feeling word order is critically important in Pali after all, especially to unravel subordinate clauses.

I started studying Pali beginning of this month, so today marks the 1 month anniversary of my studies. I started by doing PP, then when Bhante Sujato announced this course, switched to Warder.

I was planning to either go back to PP or do G&K (I already browsed through the first few lessons) after Warder, but you (along with stephen) have convinced me I should start G&K now and perhaps study it in parallel with Warder. I have been feeling that I have been drinking from a firehose, but perhaps now is the time to double down.

[stephen]

Yes, unless you have done a good amount of Pali already, G&K either first or in tandem is a great idea.
You can find videos of me teaching through the entirety of G&K on youtube.

[christie]

@asci

your questions and experiences are very motivating. I am just more of a beginner than you I guess, since I just went through Warder till lesson four so far, working with the “Learn Pali”-YouTube-lessons recommended above alongside. The author of the LP-series has also a Pali blog which may appeal to you since he practices the tri-linear format you just mentioned. Maybe you found this already:

Hello (wave) and nice to meet you. Thank you for your recommendations and the link, which I have not seen before. I haven’t been following the YouTube lessons, I was planning to do them as revision prior to each class. I have been learning from Ajahn Brahmali’s course (which also uses Warder) on wiswo.org.

It was Ajahn Brahmali that convinced me of the necessity of doing rigorous grammatical analysis of each word, since that’s what he does in each lesson. He warns students that unless they develop that habit from Lesson 1, they may run into trouble by Lesson 7 when the exercises become a lot more complex.

I am normally a “rush through speed reading” kind of person so it takes a lot of discipline for me to slow down and do these exercises thoroughly, but I end up learning more from the exercises than the lessons.

I look forward to learning and discussing with you as the course progresses.

[christie]

@stephen

Yes, unless you have done a good amount of Pali already, G&K either first or in tandem is a great idea.
You can find videos of me teaching through the entirety of G&K on youtube.

Thanks stephen, I am looking forward to watching them (I also browsed through your Sutta in the City website). I have been delaying starting G&K mainly because I thought it was too advanced for me (I think I read the first chapter when I started learning Pali and groaned), but I can see now it is very useful.

[Gillian]

@christie

. Can you please point out exactly where in Pali Primer “correlative construction and genitive absolute” are covered? I can’t seem to find them,

Sorry, geriatric memory at work. Here’s the contents page; you are right. (I muddled my memory of Stephen’s PP & G&K classes.) PP is great for those whose previous exposure to inflected languages is limited, tho.

[christie]

@Gillian

Sorry, geriatric memory at work. Here’s the contents page; you are right.

That’s okay. I thought I knew PP fairly well, and deliberately chose examples not covered by PP. I do like the book as a starting point, but I was disappointed it didn’t really help me understand the suttas.

[Gillian]

I think language teachers are still struggling to find nice bridges into the suttas for new learners. Only nerds benefit from the deep dive. (@Pasanna)

Another approach would be that if we don’t want to be bored in Bhante Sujato’s classes we don’t need to worry about getting ahead.

[bran]

I coincidentally made a similar post to this on Literal translation · Issue #2730 · suttacentral/suttacentral · GitHub.

In summary, I made a transliteration of a certain line and it ended up being quite meaningless. But, this is a different case from creating a meaningful yet incorrect interpretation.

What both of us are generally arguing here is that showing a transliteration could be misleading. I think that if it’s paired up with an actual translation and the reader cross compares with it, it would be enough to clear this.

[christie]

@bran

What both of us are generally arguing here is that showing a transliteration could be misleading. I think that if it’s paired up with an actual translation and the reader cross compares with it, it would be enough to clear this.

Agree, and I like your comment on the issue, which illustrates the point perfectly! I have made two additional comments in the linked thread, but I think we are all agreeing let’s start simple and not over-engineer and over time figure out what actually is required.

I am excited to see how this will evolve in SC. Let me know how I can contribute in any way (I am not a developer, I spent most of my working life in strategy and avoiding the nuts and bolts, but I have taught myself Javascript since I retired - mainly so I can create a website).

[sujato]

Dear friends,

We have just been finalizing the registration list, and the registration noticed should be emailed to you very shortly if it has not already come.

It will contain the Jitsi link for the class. I will post the link here as well on Tuesday in case any emails go astray.

Jitsi is like Zoom. You do not need to register, make an account, or download or install anything. Just click the link. Make sure your video and sound is working.

Sorry about the late organization, I am in Perth, where the good folks of the BSWA have ensured that my schedule is filled with wonderful and inspiring events! Deepika has been helping out, but she is traveling to Sri Lanka early next week, so she also has limited time.

In any case, we should be good now. We have 54 successful registrations. I look forward to seeing you all soon.

Meanwhile, I will open up a new thread for registered students to discuss the course. Depending how much it is used, we might start a new thread each week or just keep using the same one.

I am checking this thread to see if there is anything I need to attend to, but it has got rather long, so if I miss anything please @ me.

@Karuna_Hong you are registered, I will see you on Tuesday.

@christie there is no registration under this name, if you have not yet receievd a notification, may I ask what name and email you used to register?

@christie

construction is not fully explained

Unfortunately yes, you will occasionally encounter things like this. Don’t worry, just focus on what is taught each lesson.

@johnk

Warder is not really a good beginner Pāli, despite it’s title

true no doubt, it’s just what I know!

@johnk

Just get familiar with it

Indeed. And this is almost a proxy for the entire art of grammar. Rules of grammar are simply generalizations based on patterns of usage.

@CoreyJ your registration is accepted, see you on Tuesday.

@josephzizys

I have also not received any email?

You’re also accepted.

@christie

I have taught myself Javascript since I retired

Awesome, let me know if you would like to help on SC!

[sujato]

Paging Hugo Hoffmann, your email was rejected so we have no way of contacting you! Please send me your email in a PM.

I am notifying two users here on Discourse in the hopes that one of them is you!

@Hugo @hoffmann

[christie]

@sujato

@christie there is no registration under this name, if you have not yet receievd a notification, may I ask what name and email you used to register?

I have sent you a private message with the email I used to register. I did the registration prior to me having an account on SC Discourse, which explains why you have not been able to link it to my username.

In any case, I did receive the confirmation email so I think I am good to go, but please add me to the course thread if you have not already done so.

@sujato

Awesome, let me know if you would like to help on SC!

I would love to, but I suspect you may be over-estimating my abilities. I’ll try and fork SC on Github and see if I can understand enough to be able to contribute useful, but I am happy to help out in any way I can.

[Hugo]

@sujato

Paging Hugo Hoffmann, your email was rejected so we have no way of contacting you! Please send me your email in a PM.

I am notifying two users here on Discourse in the hopes that one of them is you!

@Hugo @hoffmann

I’m @hugo, but not Hoffmann, sorry

[Jac]

Hi Bhanta
@sujato

I thought I registered for the course a week or so ago whe n XDeepika’s email came out but I haven’t heard anything back at all? I am pretty sure I got the questions right, as I did Latin and Anc Greek at uni. I saw a post above of someone who also said they didn’t get a confirmation back from registering, so am wondering was this a bug of somekind.

Any chance of being able to check if it was missed somehow?

thanks

Jacqueline