Considering jati=birth and bhava=realm of existence, (pls correct me if I am wrong here).
In Ratan sutta Kp 6 , it is said that, 'Those who clearly distinguish the noble truths,
which have been well preached by the one with great wisdom,
no matter how great they become in heedlessness
still they do not take up an eighth existence—’
So can we say that, a stream-enterer(Sotapanna) has only 7 maximum ‘bhava’ (existences) but he can have more than 7 ‘jati’ (births) in those 7 bhavas(realms of existence)? If no then why?
Also, the Janavasabha sutta DN 18 , it talks about King bimbisara, (who became Sotapanna I believe as given in madhyama agama), he, the spirit/god (as next birth after death as King bimbisara) talks about 14 lives…so plz can anyone explain what it says about bimbisara, when as a spirit/god from heaven of four kings, he says, “For a long time I’ve been aware that I won’t be reborn in the underworld” and “But I still hope to become a once-returner”…?
When he said, “for a long time I’ve been aware that I won’t be reborn in the underworld”, does that mean he was free from lower realms even before becoming Sotapanna as King bimbisara under buddha? If yes how? Also the 14 lives he was talking about, were they before becoming Sotapanna? or in case answer to my first question above is yes, were they after becoming Sotapanna?
Kindly plz explain above things to me. It will be of immense help to me in clearing doubts. Thank you all for your time.
Not sure where you got that translation from, but on Sutta Central (the link that you provided above) it does say ‘life’.
As far as I know stream enterers have a maximum of 7 lives to live, and within those 7 lives (or maybe even before they reach number 7?) they are sure to reach nibbana.
Not sure about DN18, it looks ‘late’ but I’m not an expert so I’ll let someone else answer that for you
The most backwards sotapanna will be reconnecting at most seven more times
Furthermore, there’s a person who has fulfilled ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering. This is the sixth person …
Furthermore, there’s a person who has fulfilled ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. With the ending of three fetters, they’re a one-seeder. They will be reborn just one time in a human existence, then make an end of suffering. This is the seventh person …
Furthermore, there’s a person who has fulfilled ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. With the ending of three fetters, they go from family to family. They will transmigrate between two or three families and then make an end of suffering. This is the eighth person …
Furthermore, there’s a person who has fulfilled ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. With the ending of three fetters, they have at most seven rebirths. They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans and then make an end of suffering. This is the ninth person … SuttaCentral
Id translate bhava as existence or a mode of being
I am Bimbisāra, Holy One! This is the seventh time I am reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. When I pass away from here, I can become a king of men.
Seven from here, seven from there—fourteen transmigrations in all.I remember these lives where I lived before.
Here, Janavasabha doesn’t say that he became a stream enterer seven lives ago. Rather he says that he remembers seven and expects no more than seven more
From the day I had absolute devotion to the Buddha I have known that I won’t be reborn in the underworld, but that I still hope to become a once-returner.
As i read it, he became either a faith follower, a dhamma follower, or a sotapanna, in that very life and he remembers seven lives preceeding that.
As he states that he remembers fourteen, wouldn’t they all be in the past?
The commentary takes the “hence” and the “thence” (ito … tato …) as spatial rather than temporal: Janavasabha recalls seven times passing away “from where he is now” (the deva world) and being reborn in the human world, and seven times passing away “from there” (the human world) and being reborn in the deva world.
Seven from here, seven from there—fourteen transmigrations in all.I remember these lives where I lived before.
If we take the ‘these’ therein to refer to ‘the fourteen’ then they are all in the past, and there are then two interpretations as to what is ‘here’ & what is ‘there’
The terms ‘here’ would mean from the company of King Vessavaṇa, and the term ’ there’ would refer to whatever realm from which he passed away prior to appearing in the company of King Vessavaṇa.
‘from here’ can be taken as ‘from last’ as in counting backwards from seventh to first, and ‘from there’ can be counting forwards from first to seventh.
The question is whether he was reborn there seven times consecutively or not consecutively.
I am not convinced that either of these must be correct becausr it is not explicit that he says ‘i remember fourteen’ as he says ‘i remember these lives where I lived before’.
I am Bimbisāra, Holy One! This is the seventh time I am reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. When I pass away from here, I can become a king of men.
Seven from here, seven from there—fourteen transmigrations in all.I remember these lives where I lived before.
I am more inclined to assert that ‘seven from here’ refers to the seven lives that preceeded his current existence, and that ‘seven from there’ refers to lives to follow his passing away from here as to become a king of men.
Ok sir. But then why does he say that he remembers them in the first place? About 14 transmigrations?
Does that mean, he remembered 7 past lives prior to that life where he comes to buddha saying I am bimbisara and being Sotapanna he knew his upcoming 7 lives? I mean as a Sotapanna sakka could see his future lives so maybe that spirit/god who was bimbisara in last life actually knows where he will land in upcoming 7 lives!? And hence saying that, he remembers all 14 transmigrations?
Ok no doubt if they were consecutive lives but if they weren’t, then can that mean he does not remember intermediate lives? And one more question he says he still hopes to become once-returner then does that mean he is not sure that he will become once-returner even in upcoming 7 lives?
Also how did he know that he will not be born in lower realms for a long time when he said, 'For a long time I’ve known that I won’t be reborn in the underworld, but that I still hope to become a once-returner’?
When he said for a long time…was he talking about lives even before life as King bimbisara under lord buddha? So he knew he will not be reborn in hell, even before the life as King bimbisara? Or he remembered 14 past existences and for those 14 lives he knew that he won’t be reborn in underworld? Is that the case? What am I missing?
I don’t know enough pali to know what exactly he said in the last sentence.
If it really reads as ‘these’ implying a reference to the fourteen then i would assert that it probably means that he is was born in the company of King Vessavaṇa seven times over the course of the 14 rebirths where the 14th is his current state.
Eg it could be
Man1 - Deva2
Man3 - Deva4
Man5 - Deva6
Man7 - Deva8
Man9 - Deva10
Man11 - Deva12
Man13 - Janavasabha14
I think that it means that he hopes to make enough effort as to pass away as a once returner rather than one seeder liable for human birth, or as one who transmigates among two or three families, or as one who can take seven more births.
I don’t believe that anyone is determined to take seven births having attained stream entry. Rather some end up taking seven more births due to a lack of exertion.
Therefore if one attains stream entry he should exert himself further in that very life as to attain a higher distinction.
If we assert that the commentary is correct, which i am now inclined to do. Rhys Davis translation makes it more obvious
’Tis now the seventh time, lord, that I am reborn into the communion of the great King Vessavaṇa. Deceased as a human king, I am in heaven become a non-human king.
Hence seven, thence seven, in all fourteen rebirths—So much I know of lives I’ve lived in the long past. Long, lord, have I, who am destined not to be reborn in states of woe, been conscious of that destiny, and now is there desire in me to become a Once-returner.”
Then it’s not clear when it happened but it can be narrowed down a little.
If he is currently a stream enterer then he was either born a stream enterer or he attained it in this very life.
If Janavasabha is born as a stream enterer then it is not his 7th birth as a stream enterer, because it’d be impossible for him to become a once returner on the 7th.
If he wasn’t born a stream enterer then he must have attained it in that very life.
