About Sotapanna - Please correct me if I'm wrong

Discussion
1

Sukhi Hontu… :anjal:

Please correct me if I’m wrong… :slight_smile:

  1. Dhammacakkhu is a synonym of Sotapatti Magga.

  2. Sotapatti Magga is divided into two types, namely Saddhanussari and Dhammanussari.

  3. Sotapatti Phala is divided into 3 types, namely Ekabiji, Kolankola, and Sattakkhattuparamassa.

Many thanks… :anjal:

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2

For points 2 and 3, this is my understanding as well.

Regarding point 1, I thought that dhammacakkhu was a reference to the sotapatti phala rather than the magga (when one sees the Dhamma, ones becomes a sotāpanna)… but I would be interested to hear your views on this.
:anjal:

Regarding point 2, I just found this nice OP from Gabriel: Faith-Follower & Dhamma-Follower, which also confirms your point 2.

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well, my view is the magga. Because in some suttas, when dhammacakkhu appears, this sentence appears: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.” if matched with SN 25, I think it fits with Sotapatti magga… :slight_smile:

Sorry for bad english XD

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I agree with 1) and 2).

I supposed the last three types could be sotapatti magga or phala, unless the text specifically mentions this.

with metta

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I wondered if a sotapatti phala who has jhana could be called kayasakkhi, if they are able to advert to phala and experience ‘Nibbana with the body’.

with metta

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6

Your linked sutta is missing a number, which one did you mean?

But someone who sees the Dhamma (dhammacakkhu ) is not on the path to stream-entry anymore, he is a stream-enterer. Someone on the path to stream-entry (a faith-follower or dhamma-follower) has not yet had the vision of Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”

So for me it would be:

  1. Path to stream-entry (Sotapatti Magga):
    2 types:

    • Faith-follower
    • Dhamma- follower

  2. Fruit of stream-entry (Sotapatti Phala)
    3 types:

    • person who is reborn seven times at most (Sattakkhattuparamassa)
    • passing from one noble family to another (Kolankola)
    • germinating only once more (Ekabiji)
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A bit off-topic but interestingly, the types of stream-enterer might have been a teaching that the Buddha did not want to teach to anyone at first, as stated in AN9.12:

“These nine persons, passing away with a residue remaining, are freed from hell, the animal realm, and the sphere of afflicted spirits; freed from the plane of misery, the bad destination, the lower world. Sāriputta, I had not been disposed to give this Dhamma exposition to the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, male lay followers, and female lay followers. For what reason? I was concerned that on hearing this Dhamma exposition, they might take to the ways of heedlessness. However, I have spoken this Dhamma exposition for the purpose of answering your question.”

It might have been one of the numerous siṃsapa leaves that were not in the hand of the Buddha but managed to get there anyway after many years of teaching and insistent questions from his students! (SN56.31)

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Every Sutta in SN 25:

… "One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. …

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Every Sutta in SN 25

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Ok thanks.

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Yes each one will attain phala. However that could be closer to their deaths, so it depends on when the question is asked. If it is asked whether someone is going to take a certain number of lifetimes before becoming an arahanth, that person could be at magga or they might be at phala (as phala is certain before the end of this lifetime). It really doesn’t matter whether it is magga or phala as the issue is about a future occurrence and the Buddha would be able to navigate it either way.

With metta

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I’m currently writing my Master’s dissertation on the topic of stream-entry in the early Buddhist texts. One of the things I am questioning is precisely the synonymy between the arising of the dhamma eye and stream-entry, because I realised that those situations in the sutta almost never (to the best of my knowledge at the moment) use the language of stream-entry. I think I have it somewhere in my notes that perhaps there is an instance in which after the dhamma eye one is said to have abandoned the three fetters and therefore become a stream-enterer, but there is another one in which the result is a higher attainment, and most of the times (almost always) we are not told. It simply doesn’t use the language of the four stages. Instead it tends to be related to taking refuge and becoming a lay follower, and sometimes this comes first and later the dhamma eye arises in that person, and some other times the arising of the dhamma eye causes someone to take refuge and become a lay follower.

I obviously cannot go in the full details of what I’m writing, basically because I should be writing my dissertation just now LOL But it might be helpful to remember that the treatment of the stages as a momentary thing belongs to a later period. In the early texts something like stream-entry is not a moment or an insight or a meditative experience, it is fundamentally a condition, i.e. being a stream-enterer. One of the main definitions, for example, is that a stream-enterer is anyone who has full confidence in the Buddha, dhamma and sangha and has a virtuous behaviour.

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The other definition is that it is someone who has entered the ‘stream’ of the Noble Eightfold Path. The other is that they have known and seen the four noble truths, five aggregates, DO etc. Without making the (easy) mistake of choosing one and then nenglecting the other definitions, it is best to see if it is possible to determine one way to be inclusive and be able to hold all these descriptions in one conceptual container which is the stream entrant.

with metta

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I agree with you… :slight_smile:

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Please share with us your study once it’s approved, I at least would be interested!

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Upatissa (later, Ven Sariputta) becomes a stream entrant in one moment. So do others immediately after listening to the Dhamma by the Buddha.

With metta

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Anathapindika I believe was another example of this. He heard the Buddha and had immediate faith and is mentioned as having attained sotapanna from that.

One of my favorite parts is where Anathapindika is asked by other ascetics what the Buddha teaches. Anathapindika remarks something along the lines of “I don’t know much about what the venerable one teaches”. (This is a stream enterer saying this) That surprised me when I read it, but it shows there are a few ways to “get there”.

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Doesn’t that just mean they were converted the Buddhism?

It’s sort of like when someone goes to hear a political speech and gets “bowled over” by the presentation. They then enter the stream of that candidate’s campaign.

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As I understand it; the chronology is somewhat compressed. A person hears the Dhamma, gains faith… become stream enterer. The Buddha may proclaim them a stream enterer before it happens by way of the divine eye. They have the correct causes and conditions to become a stream enterer in this life.

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Oh come on, really? :wink: I guess if you thought the Buddha was akin to Gary Johnson or something like that…