Abstaining from lying down: anyone practiced this Dhutanga?

[MOCA]

to “dance”, not literally, but figuratively. Abstinence, when done with skill, appears effortless and joyful!

[MOCA]

[SeriousFun136]

@MOCA

to “dance”, not literally, but figuratively. Abstinence, when done with skill, appears effortless and joyful!

What is the purpose of abstaining from lying down?
Why not re-direct all of that effort towards developing skill in the Noble Eightfold Path instead?

[MOCA]

i like your down-to-earth questions.

@SeriousFun136

What is the purpose of abstaining from lying down?

my understanding of the optional austerities (dhutanga) prescribed by the teacher is that one invest energy in the present in order to arouse even greater energy.

@SeriousFun136

Why not re-direct all of that effort towards developing skill in the Noble Eightfold Path instead?

my friend, if you would be so good as to point out for me – a sleepy slothful man of low energy and prey to many vices – a still more skillful way of developing the path than arousing energy, i will bow down to you in gratitude.

[SeriousFun136]

@MOCA

i will bow down to you in gratitude.

lol, no need. I am still learning too.

@MOCA

a still more skillful way of developing the path than arousing energy

Perhaps focusing one’s efforts on the sixth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path could be a suitable practice - to be honest, for me too!

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vayamo/index.html

[thomaslaw]

@MOCA

my understanding of the optional austerities (dhutanga) prescribed by the teacher is that one invest energy in the present in order to arouse even greater energy.

What is the purpose for the “greater energy”?

[MOCA]

@SeriousFun136

Perhaps focusing one’s efforts on the sixth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path could be a suitable practice - to be honest, for me too!

i think we’re both pursuing the same thing in our own way

[MOCA]

… ?
not sure i understand the question. it seems profound.

in either case, the answer is ‘to walk the path’

[SeriousFun136]

@MOCA

i think we’re both pursuing the same thing in our own way

I noticed that I didn’t clarify, by sixth factor, I meant right effort or energy.

I noticed you seem to be doing a practice (austerity) in order to arouse energy as the end.
It made me think instead of developing a means to get to energy as the end, why not develop that directly as a means to happiness or Nibbana as the end.

Perhaps reflection on the prospect of (y)our own eventual death could help arouse urgency, which seems related in that it could help overcome cloth.

Another simple solution could be to eat more moderately and healthy foods - this is often related to energy levels. Walking meditation seems like it could help overcome stagnation.

For me personally, I think trying to studying and practicing the Dhamma-Vinaya as a whole seems sufficiently challenging and engaging to arouse energy - perhaps learn parts of the Dhamma-Vinaya that I wasn’t aware of previously.

[MOCA]

@SeriousFun136

I noticed that I didn’t clarify, by sixth factor, I meant right effort or energy.

of course. you put me to shame with your considerate reply.
i hope mine does you justice.

@SeriousFun136

I noticed you seem to be doing a practice (austerity) in order to arouse energy as the end.
It made me think instead of developing a means to get to energy as the end, why not develop that directly as a means to happiness or Nibbana as the end.

actually, we are in accord that skillful use of energy is a means to nibbana.

@SeriousFun136

Perhaps reflection on the prospect of (y)our own eventual death could help arouse urgency, which seems related in that it could help overcome cloth.

Another simple solution could be to eat more moderately and healthy foods - this is often related to energy levels. Walking meditation seems like it could help overcome stagnation.

For me personally, I think trying to studying and practicing the Dhamma-Vinaya as a whole seems sufficiently challenging and engaging to arouse energy - perhaps learn parts of the Dhamma-Vinaya that I wasn’t aware of previously.

indeed i can attest to the many benefits conferred by these practices.

but then, sometimes the mind is inspired by a nagging ambition to go beyond these, and take on a challenge because it is difficult.

here is my question for you to consider:

how else but by harnessing and taming our own natural energies are we to be bold and challenge the limits of what we think is possible?

at the risk of disruption, each of us is responsible for remembering that we play a decisive role in either imposing or abandoning limitations on the mind.

the path starts with right view, and to me, right view is calculated risk. like the scientific method.

[Gillian]

@MOCA

EDIT: erm… How do i delete the topic again?

Hi MOCA,

Thank you for thinking in a discerning fashion about the value of what you are posting. Would you like one of the moderators to delete this thread?

Alternatively we could close it for you, so that no further comments are possible Which do you prefer?

[Invo]

I think deleting the topic is not a great idea, for example because of Khemarato Bhikkhu very good answer, which is valuable, so it is worth preserving. . Thank you Bhante!

I’ve allowed myself to change the name of topic from: “Abstaining from lying down: Anyone dance the Dhutanga?” to “Abstaining from lying down: anyone practiced this Dhutanga?”, to avoid any potential unpleasant associations with the name. Of course final dicision lies in hands and hearts of our dearest moderators.

Metta

[SeriousFun136]

@MOCA

of course. you put me to shame with your considerate reply.
i hope mine does you justice.

lol, that was not the intent, I had some thoughts that seemed relevant, so I shared those!
I enjoy discussing on the topic of Buddhism/Dhamma-Vinaya, so even a little bit of valuable discussion on it seems to be doing justice to it to that degree. It’s better than what I’m getting with a lot of other people who are not even interested in Buddhism at all lol. Every little bit counts.

@MOCA

actually, we are in accord that skillful use of energy is a means to nibbana.

@MOCA

indeed i can attest to the many benefits conferred by these practices.

@MOCA

but then, sometimes the mind is inspired by a nagging ambition to go beyond these, and take on a challenge because it is difficult.

I replied to this thread because I can totally relate.

Not sure if I can find it but there is a discourse where the Buddha lays out 4 kinds of practices:
difficult, harmful
difficult, beneficial
easy, harmful
easy, beneficial

The Buddha obviously endorsed the two that are actually fruitful and lead to benefit, and did not endorse difficult practices simply because they were difficult.

I think intuitively this makes sense, but it helped clarify this topic in my own mind, and helped steer me towards those practices the provide the most value for my time and energy investment into them.

@MOCA

here is my question for you to consider:

how else but by harnessing and taming our own natural energies are we to be bold and challenge the limits of what we think is possible?

Your thought-provoking question reminds me of this discourse by the Buddha:

@amimettalove

Upaññāta Sutta - The Known

“Bhikkhus, I have personally known two things: non-contentment in regard to wholesome qualities and indefatigability in striving. I strove indefatigably, resolved: ‘Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up in my body, but I will not relax my energy so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, energy, and exertion.’ It was by heedfulness that I achieved enlightenment, bhikkhus; it was by heedfulness that I achieved the unsurpassed security from bondage.

“If, bhikkhus, you too would strive indefatigably, resolved: ‘Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up in my body, but I will not relax my energy so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, energy, and exertion,’ you too will, in no long time, realize for yourselves with direct knowledge, in this very life, that unsurpassed consummation of the spiritual life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness, and having entered upon it, you will dwell in it.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will strive indefatigably, resolved: “Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up in my body, but I will not relax my energy so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, energy, and exertion.”’ It is in such a way that you should train yourselves.”

(AN. i. 50)

@MOCA

the path starts with right view

Agreed.

@MOCA

and to me, right view is calculated risk. like the scientific method.

What do you mean? Can you explain?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ditthi/index.html

@Gillian

Hi MOCA,

Thank you for thinking in a discerning fashion about the value of what you are posting. Would you like one of the moderators to delete this thread?

Alternatively we could close it for you, so that no further comments are possible Which do you prefer?

Another possible alternative:
Can this thread be combined with the other one regarding austerities that a moderator pointed out before? This one:

@Viveka

How do monks who refrain from lying down hold themselves when sleeping? Q & A

I am curious how they keep themselves upright and stable, like against a wall or a post, or if they do not. If they do not, do they keep their posture properly upright, or do they slouch?

Enjoy

[faujidoc1]

Don’t know about the why, but here is the how!!

[karl_lew]

@SeriousFun136

4 kinds of practices:

MN46:5.1:…four ways of taking up practices.
There is a way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain.
There is a way of taking up practices that is painful now but results in future pleasure.
There is a way of taking up practices that is pleasant now but results in future pain.
There is a way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure.

Airplanes are a wonderful place to sleep without lying down. Instead of trying to fall asleep, simply focus on the thread of awareness that joins the breaths. That thread leads to successive places of letting go. If one lets go of the thread, sleep happens. But if one holds onto the thread as it gets finer and finer… “we have arrived at our destination. Thank you for flying Air Buddha”.

May all sleeping sentient beings not keel over.

[MOCA]

Thanks! I prefer to delete
sorry for the inconvenience

[MOCA]

You, dear friend, are a fountain of knowledge and inspiring quotation!

@SeriousFun136

What do you mean? Can you explain?

Maybe better in another setting. We seem to be slipping out of the bounds of this forum.
Suffice to say, right view is a hypothetical stance that must be tested (rigorously) to arrive at knowledge and vision. Simply holding such a view implies an act of faith, since it is something you don’t have direct knowledge of. and faith implies accepting the risk you might be wrong.

[Viveka]

Echoing what @Gillian said, thank you for your consideration. Though, the thread now has 26 posts, with quite a few contributors, and valuable contributions While you weren’t looking, I switched the category to ‘watercooler’ .

So basically the delete option has evaporated.
Normally a thread can be deleted shortly after posting, and before any real discussions start.
Also for your information, you can use the PM facility to have a more in-depth conversation, including personal practice, with specific people. One can include multiple users in these.

metta

[MOCA]

thanks. lots of great feedback for me.

[Charlotteannun]

Noooooo