Thank you Bhante, I appreciate your kindness. 
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Thatās great. Thatās the kind of behavior I used to expect from monastics: displays of fellowship, tolerance, appreciation, and respect. Sadly, I had those expectations dashed long ago, lol.
Iām not trying to rag on Nanachat, by the way. I have tremendous respect for the dedication and commitment shown to training there. I also know some marvellous monks who came from there. I havenāt been to Nanachat in a long time, and āthe monks of Nanachatā is hardly a static thing. So Iām sure oneās impression of that place will change based on who the abbot and senior monastics are when visiting. However, when I was there, ātolerance, appreciation, and respectā are not the words I would have used to describe the general atmosphere.
Exactly, hence:
Ha-ha. Anyway, Iām glad there are people who strive to live so simply and renounce comforts like the Buddha and early sangha did.
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When it comes to right speech, my understanding of the dhamma is this: it must be true; it must be necessary, it must be kind; it must be the right time; it must be thoroughly in keeping with Dhamma. This instruction often keeps my lips closed and my pen in my pocket.
Actually, Iām pretty sure age discrimination is also illegal under the Australian Federal Anti Discrimination Act - so potentially if you discriminate on age you are breaking a federal law and your organisation can be held accountable.
Iāve wondered how it is that some Australian monastics can be unaware of this, perhaps they havenāt been told!
There is no reason for this type of discrimination in Australian Buddhist monastic communities - instead they have every right to just say no to people if they donāt feel they are suitable candidates, as long as this is not just hiding a hateful prejudice.
Alas, as we see in places like Sri Lanka, Burma, Bhutan, Thailand etc. , being Buddhist doesnāt automatically exempt you from greed ( wanting things to be a certain way even if it harms others and yourself), hatred (aversion based on ill will to other beings) and delusion (that you can hide behind a veil of communal self interest).
I hope that the refreshing rain of the Buddha dharma can fall on all these people as well, so that they can become wiser and more compassionate.
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Ajahn Brahmās monasteries in Australia, I donāt see age discrimination. Heās not part of Ajahn Chahās monasteries discussed in the OP.
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Most job application does have age discrimination. Above 65 or say even 80, 95, who wants to hire the old folks to do most jobs? In Singapore, I see old folks do recycling collection, cleaning table at hawker stalls, etc.
I think there is a strong belief that without an age limit the monasteries would turn into retirement homes. Particularly in the west where monastics have given up a large chunk of their samana life to build monasteries, it rubs the wrong way to have people who have been enjoying sensual pleasures that whole time to just roll in and enjoy the fruits of the monasticsā labour.
There is a similar attitude towards older monks who have spent their junior lives living abroad in āless strictā monasteries who then would like to move back to their home country in old age. Both of these situations are more exacerbated in the Ajahn Chah tradition where monastics may spend most months of the year doing physical labour for 4-5 hours every day. Such is not the life of monks living in most temples in Thailand.
You should also keep in mind that training new monastics is real work that takes serious time. And thatās just thinking of the technical training. The emotional labour of making monastics is a serious thing and has a cost as well.
Iām not justifying any of these attitudes or practices. Just trying to give a bit more perspective.
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Hello Venerable
Age discrimination is not allowed in Australian corporate structures or by government agencies. Advertising jobs/roles as limited according to old age would definitely be against the law in Australia. In practice I know that this exists in Australia, even in some monasteries though not at Bodhinyana.
However if you advertise a job and state that old age disqualifies you even though you have the capacity (fitness, qualifications etc.) then that is definitely illegal in Australia.
You can verify this by looking at the Australian Federal Anti Discrimination act - easily available on line.
I am unfamiliar with Singapore law and how it applies to this matter.
With metta,
Rohan Delilkhan
But being a monk or nun is not a job.
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I think itās worth pointing out again that the title of this thread was based on the first post by the OP. The threadās title was changed and the original post was heavily edited. The first post implied that the sole reason the OP was denied entry to monasteries was because of his age. However, in subsequent posts it became obvious that the OPās age had very little to do with being turned away from the monasteries he spoke with. I think all of this has lead people to believe that ageism is a much bigger issue than it actually is. Based on what I myself witnessed in the Ajahn Cha monasteries (in Thailand), and have heard from people who have spent time in other Theravada monasteries, itās not uncommon for middle-aged men, or even men past middle age, to ordain. I met men in Thailand who ordained at Wat Pah Nanachat and Wat Marp Jan when they were in their 50s and 60s. So long as someone is healthy enough to handle the rigours of monastic life, and are able to follow all the korwat and Vinaya, they will be allowed to ordain. When speaking of forest traditions, it is unlikely that someone is going to wait until theyāre 60 and then ordain to have a comfortable, relaxing retirement. The lifestyle is not set up to be comfortable.
One thing to keep in mind is that in many Asian countries people start families much earlier than in the West. Of course this is changing, but itās less common for people to wait until theyāre 35 to have a child. So if a man didnāt ordain before starting a family, heāll most likely wait until his children are old enough to take care of themselves. That puts the man around middle age when he ordains. Based on everything Iāve seen or heard, this is not uncommon at all in Asian Theravada countries. A blog written by an American monk whoās been living in Myanmar for many years mentioned this specifically when comparing the best places to ordain. In his opinion, Myanmar might be a better place to ordain when someone is older, since the monks there donāt engage in the same kind of physically intensive chores that monk in the Ajahn Cha tradition do.
Snowbird makes many valid points. As she rightly points out, these issues are more of a concern in the West than in Asia. Honestly, though, considering that about 99% of Western monastics disrobe, I really wonder how valid these concerns are. Additionally, if weāre talking about monasteries in Western countries that have nationalized health care, where everyone has access to affordable healthcare, I think age is even less of an issue. In America, for example, quitting your job and losing an income means you donāt have health insurance. So a relatively simple health issue could easily push someone into ten of thousands of US dollars of debt. However, compared with a European country where healthcare is a right and not a privilege, that isnāt as big of a problem. So the argument about the costs of healthcare for a monastic who is middle-aged or older versus someone in their 20s isnāt that big of an issue.
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Right livelihood is a common term used in the suttas I believe for the work of being a monastic.
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To be fair, when someone hires you for a job, they arenāt inviting you into their home to live with you. They take no responsibility for you outside of working hours. Even during working hours, their responsibility towards you is limited to your job performance. When ordaining someone, the community is inviting that person into their home to live with them. The preceptor, and the community as a whole, takes on a huge responsibility. The training process involves taking responsibility for pretty much every aspect of the newly ordained personās behaviour. You canāt really compare the process of applying to and working at a secular job with being a monastic.
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I am really quite surprised to hear such a high number disrobe! Iām wondering if that is somehow related to Western monastics often ordaining later, is it harder to become accustomed to monastic life?
As for healthcare, I can see how that could be a huge burden for a monastery, especially in the US. I think I have read somewhere that being located in California (as a big number of American monasteries are) is quite helpful, as they have more generous benefits for those who need healthcare and donāt have employers.
But even in the rest of the US, folks in their middle 60s and older have access to government healthcare through Medicare. I have always wondered how American monastics handle Social Security payments once they reach that age, I assume not handling money means you renounce your Social Security benefits, but presumably you can still take the healthcare.
I think there are probably a number of reasons for this: difficulty with communal living, unrealistic expectations (about monastic life in general, as well as how quickly one will reap the rewards of practice), fundamentally different cultural and societal influences and pressures (or lack thereof), different ideas about what being a monastic meansā¦
Itās quite difficult to compare someone who
- comes from a culture very different than most Western cultures,
- was born into extreme poverty,
- was put into a monastery as a child, and so hasnāt ever known anything else,
with the son or daughter of a wealthy Western engineer (for example) who
- never lacked anything in their entire lives
- comes from a culture that doesnāt accept them as a Buddhist monastic (and would probably be happier if they disrobed)
- was university educated, had a career and relationships,
- who then becomes a monastic,
- but can always disrobe at any time and have access to enough money to let them set up a new life.
There are just so many factors.
One thing to consider is that in certain Buddhist countries itās very shameful for a son or daughter to disrobe. It reflects badly on the whole family. Iāve known a few Asian monastics who stayed in robes only for that reason.
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Thatās an exaggeration. Over their life time, it could be closer to 50%. But itās really hard to give good stats on this. I donāt think monks being older in the west has much impact on the number.
Of course medical issues can come to anyone at any age. However it does become more likely as people get older. And itās important to remember that itās not just a matter of medical bills. There are lots of other ways that ill health impacts a community, some directly financial and some not.
This one is quite complicated. First of all, itās wrong to assume that just because someone comes from the west that they have fall back resources to set up a new life. On the contrary, starting lay life from scratch has big financial barriers. So someone may decide to disrobe earlier with the thought that in old age it will be harder to start over in lay life.
No, it really isnāt. Ask one of the monks whoās managed to stay in robes for 20 years or more, like Bhante Sujato, how many monks theyāve seen disrobe. Theyāll give you a number much closer to 99% that 50%. Iām also taking into account Westerners who go to Asia to ordain.
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I havenāt been around as long as Bhante S, but I would say that 99% is an exaggeration. For every one monk that stays in robes, 99 would disrobe?
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Long term wise. Look to long term.
One can arrive roughly at a high number of disrobe by single timeslice comparison of numbers of senior theras to junior monks.
If a lot of people stay in robes their whole life, the number of theras, maha theras would be a lot, compared to the young monks.
Buddhism is not exactly growing in population % of world religions.
Anyway, if oneās a monk, one has to think that I am one of the 1%! Statistics cannot predict individual outcomes.
Or for every 1 who stays, 9 disrobe. That number is about right based on what Iāve seen over the last 20-plus years. You can do some simple math yourself. What percentage of monks in Ajahn Brahmās monastery and the Western Ajahn Cha branch monasteries have 20 or more pansa? And how many people are ordaining every year in those monasteries? The waiting lists are huge, but there are very few Mahatheras. Where does every one go?
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Of course thatās what Iām thinking about. Iām happy to agree with 80% disrobing.
Anyway, itās hard to measure. And not so relevant to the OP. As well, the reality for western monastics in the west 25 years ago was quite grim and caused a higher number to disrobe from overwork. So if we are looking long term, we also have to consider how life in the west was different 25 years ago if we are going to start counting from those days.
By the way, Iām not judging anyone for disrobing. The Vinaya allows it up to 7 times, and I think many people benefit from some time in robes. The Ajahn Cha tradition doesnāt really do temporary ordination for Westerners, like they do for Thai men, but I think it might be good if they started.
I also wasnāt trying to shock anyone by claiming so many Westerners disrobe. I got used to it, I guess, and didnāt think bringing up how common it was would upset anyone.
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