I think this makes sense; IMO it is actually more subversive to find peace and freedom when one is mired in suffering.
However, I also think there’s a danger of confusing material equanimity for spiritual equanimity (SN 36.31).
That is, how do I know if I have developed actual peace (spiritual equanimity) and that I’m not just rationalizing my own relative privilege (material equanimity)?
E.g. “It’s easy to find peace, just be an able bodied white male with a salary from a government backed by the world biggest sovereign wealth fund, like me”
“Why are the poor and oppressed complaining so much? don’t they know life is easy? if you get stressed, just take a week off work to go on a meditation retreat, like me”
“Can’t afford to take a week off? Just get a better job, dummy!”
Obviously I’m exaggerating with these quotes to illustrate the sort of ‘peace of mind’ that comes maybe from having one’s material needs satisfied, a.k.a. privilege, and not from spiritual practice.
Not pointing fingers at anyone (except maybe myself).
An acquaintance of mine recently announced she has been quietly working toward Canadian citizenship for the last 3 years and is close to the end of the process.
I’m impressed. I think that was a proactive and smart thing to do.
Risking being off topic, I had to smile in agreement
May be a smart thing to do. Let’s say that Trudeau is slightly less authoritarian, but the qualifications are quite high for a poor high school grad like me, so I will practice non-attachment to expatration.
I wonder if becoming a Canadian citizen addresses the real issue that human society is unsatisfactory, power corrupts, and that nothing is permanent. Few people expected Trump to be elected. I wonder who Trudeau’s successors will be.
Yes, that’s very right, and it’s all about anicca, uncertainty how anything subject to it is just not worth grasping, fighting or longing for, pursuing…
This is the crux of the Buddha’s call for us to let go four posdible ignoble searches (anariyapariyesanā), as in AN4.255 and other suttas.
The tragicomedy is that if we are still around and wondering about those things, 25 centuries after the Buddha, is exactly because we have been since then and even before then involved in such ignoble searches…
Following years of participating in political protests and being a member of a political party which struggles to gain influence, I came to feel all of my efforts were for nothing as the machine rolled on with blatant disregard for the natural environment, callous dehumanising of asylum seekers and denial of climate change realities.
Sometimes it’s necessary to step away and to care for ourselves in whichever ways replenish our energy and restore our sense of connection with others.
For me, the Dhamma has provided a ‘home base’
from which I can venture out into the social and political arenas and work with others whilst maintaining my attention on the quality of energy and intention I bring to the actions.
It really is possible to act skilfully from good heart and to feel this to be the most important aspect rather than to be concerned with the outcome.
The joy and happiness which come from this, together with the nourishment of meditation practice and Dhamma teachings can carry our good work forward.
The outcomes are always uncertain and positive change often seems impossible, yet skillful, wholehearted and loving actions can change so much.
It is worse than that. I used to read a discussion group for general Buddhism ( all types ) on reddit.com.
There were people posting there who were also members of groups called MGTOW and RedPill. Those groups were about angry men who explicitly stated that the cause of their unhappiness was women and their content was devoted to misogynistic rants. Many of the members of those groups also crossed over with right wing groups.
How they could resolve that with the Buddha’s teachings I do not know.
Looking at things optimistically, many of the people on that sight are very young men. So I’m spinning that to myself as young men looking something and being fortunate enough to stumble into Buddhism which may one day lead them out of their hate.
My friend is far from rich with a solid profession. She is a C list actress who gets by doing burlesque shows.
Emigrating to Canada may only have some benefits ( universal healthcare ) in the long run. Canadian friends tell me that like the US they have a large hard right wing movement that wants to pull the country apart. They have had their “Bush” and they are only 1 election away at any given time from their own trump administration.
Yes…yes indeed this caused me a reaction which probably necessitates a new topic perhaps called 'Buddhism and misogyny. What do you think?
As an politically imperiled Trans woman, I have often contemplated a possible relocation to a kinder gentler place only to realize that there are no egalitarian places or countries for me.
And I do ask myself why male dominated authoritarianism is on the rise, and why are men of a certain ilk so angry, and violent toward women. Another topic?
In Buddhism, there is a concept of the wheel-turning king.
It seems at odds with western notions of democracy and republic.
But I think the concept of the wheel-turning king seems relevant to a discussion such as this.
Seems from worst to best:
Harmful monarchy
Harmful republic
Harmful democracy
Beneficial democracy
Beneficial republic
Beneficial monarchy
Democracy seems to be the most inefficient system (takes a lot of time to build consensus), while monarch seems to be the most efficient (takes just one command from one individual).
Efficiently bad seems much worse than inefficiently bad - hence the appeal of democracy. It’s the difference between Trump being a dictator vs. Trump being the president. But it’s also the difference between more skilled presidents being unable to pass beneficial laws because a beneficial king can’t simply issue a beneficial command (think: deadlocked congress).
So I don’t know if a conversation about Buddhism and government/politics is complete without addressing the topic of a beneficial, wheel-turning monarchy.
Hello Rosie,
Another fellow American here.
The Buddha did not give up on the political system, nor did he expect too much of it.
Consider DN 2, the Discourse on the Fruits of the Homeless life. Here , the Buddha gives a long talk with King Ajatasattu. This king had come to the throne by murdering his own father, King Bimbisara, who had been a friend and supporter of the Buddha.
The Buddha knew samsara would not produce perfect governments and societies, but he gave tirelessly to help people understand how best to manage their politics and social affairs.
Yes, Trump is a disaster and an embarrassment. As American citizens, we would love to see our country project positive values and actions as a nation, but in my lifetime it has been a very mixed bag. I am nearly the same age as you.
Under President Eisenhower, we dominated Central America and overthrew progressive governments at will, all for cheap bananas. Under Presidents Johnson and Nixon we bombed Vietnam and neighboring countries mercilessly. Under President Reagan, we backed an insurgency in Nicaragua to again block justice for poor people. Under Presidents Bush 1 and 2 we waged war for oil in the Middle East, and lied to the world about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in order to justify our military intervention, which has resulted in bringing untold chaos and suffering to the region. And now under Trump we withdraw from climate talks and doom the world to the fire in order t protect our standard of living.
Yet amidst all this, America has also been a positive force in many ways. It is such a mixed bag. and as Gabriel reminds us, we can’t really expect more from samsara, or of our own country.
I find it very important to forgive my country and the world for not living up to my ideals and expectations, and to forgive Donald J Trump. He is not the devil. He is not evil. He is doing the best he can at his level of consciousness. I mean that. We all are.
When our actions are based on greed, hatred, arrogance, desire for fame, the ignorance of seeing others as objects to satisfy our desires, then our actions reflect that. Trump is President, and he is, as Freudian social commentator Norman O. Brown wrote about the presidency, “An erection of the body politic.”
Yes, Trump is there in power because in his genius he has plumbed the depths of the American psyche and turned it into a coherent political force, a strange form of American fascism and populism. Only a mentally healthy electorate can put forward a healthy government, and our democracy seems to be failing, does it not?
But elections are coming this November. I am registered to vote and will encourage all friends and acquaintances to also do so. In our country, we have the incredible ability, so rare throughout history, of being able to go to the ballot box and say, “No, this will not do. We will make a change.”
It will still be samsara, and there will be further troubles ahead. But we can leave this president in the dustbin of history.
Please join us and do it. Every vote counts.
with metta
Now at that time Venerable Ānanda was standing behind the Buddha fanning him. Then the Buddha said to him, “Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis meet frequently and have many meetings?”
“I have heard that, sir.”
“As long as the Vajjis meet frequently and have many meetings, they can expect growth, not decline.
Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis meet in harmony, leave in harmony, and carry on their business in harmony?”
…
Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis don’t make new decrees or abolish existing decrees, but proceed having undertaken the traditional Vajjian principles as they have been decreed?”
…
Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis honor, respect, esteem, and venerate Vajjian elders, and think them worth listening to?”
…
Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis don’t rape or abduct women or girls from their families and force them to live with them?”
…
Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis honor, respect, esteem, and venerate the Vajjian shrines, whether inner or outer, not neglecting the proper spirit-offerings that were given and made in the past?”
…
Ānanda, have you heard that the Vajjis arrange for proper protection, shelter, and security for perfected ones, so that more perfected ones might come to the realm and those already here may live in comfort?”
“I have heard that, sir.”
“As long as the Vajjis arrange for proper protection, shelter, and security for perfected ones, so that more perfected ones might come to the realm and those already here may live in comfort, they can expect growth, not decline.”
Then the Buddha said to Vassakāra, “Brahmin, this one time I was staying near Vesālī at the Sarandada woodland shrine. There I taught the Vajjis these seven principles that prevent decline. As long as these seven principles that prevent decline last among the Vajjis, and as long as the Vajjis are seen following them, they can expect growth, not decline.”
And yet the Buddha established the Sangha on the principal of radical (everyone has to agree), local democracy rather than a hierarchical model?
Yup!
I think the Vajjis were a republic - and I think the Buddha supported beneficial republics - actually, probably all types of beneficial governments, not just monarchs.
I don’t think any form a government is inherently worse or better than any other - it seems to depend primarily on the beings who are make up the government.
I just wanted to bring this into the conversation because I think in the west, there is, for the better or worse, a bias against monarchy, regardless how harmful or beneficial it could be, that’s all. Also, the highest government ideal in Buddhism seems to be a beneficial constitutional monarchy with a wheel-turning king as the head of state and the Dhamma as the constitution to be obeyed by the king himself.
How do you mean? I have heard of this before, but I am not sure. Can you elaborate how this is the case?
I think the overall idea and the sentiment of both seem remarkably similar:
philosopher is the only person who has access to ideas – the archetypal entities that exist behind all representations of the form (such as Beauty itself as opposed to any one particular instance of beauty).
This could be interpreted somewhat like the Buddha being able to discern the universal laws of nature, which was generally called “Dhamma or Dharma” in India at the time.
That being said, I do think that the fundamental difference between the two is that:
A philosopher-king seems to a very general notion of a “wisdom-loving king,” whereas a cakkavatti/wheel-turning king seems be very specifically defined as one who governs based, depending, and relying only on the Dhamma (as taught by the Buddha, as opposed to say Hindu Dharma, Jain Dharma, Greek philosophy, etc.).
Depending on how you define it, one could say that all cakkavatti/wheel-turning kings could be considered a type of philosopher-king in the broadest sense of the phrase, but not all philosopher-kings could be rightly and accurately called cakkavatti/wheel-turning kings, primarily because they do not necessarily depend on and govern in accordance with the Dhamma.
I don’t know if this would be wise or in accordance with the Dhamma though.
For example, King Bimbisara was a sotāpanna, but say, neither Pasenadi nor the Vajjis seemed to be.
Furthermore, that Buddha was a wheel turning king in previous lives, but he did not become a sotāpanna until his last lifetime.
Finally, there are sotāpanna who are neither interested in nor skilled at governance, while there may be those ordinary, worldly beings who have not been able to attain even the first stage of Nibbana, yet may be relatively skilled at governance.
Perhaps a better institutional design is one which reliably selects only those who are knowledgeable and skilled at governance to govern - perhaps not unlike the way people need to study in medical school and practice in residency training before getting licensed to become qualified, independent doctors.
If you were able to come up with such an institutional design (especially one that accords with the Dhamma-Vinaya), I think that would definitely be an extremely valuable contribution to the world.
I am very happy that all sorts of people, including Trump supporters are taking up Buddhism. There is no political view put forward by the suttas, and it does not necessitate us to be liberals or conservatives, or to take part in politics at all. But as we begin to drop our unskillful views, behaviors and associated prejudices, delving into the teachings of the Buddha and especially looking inwards into our own mind will transform us and impact on all aspects of our lives. This will, if we are active politically, impact on our political action and views. I honor and respect you and your opinions, as I hope you do mine. May we all together enlighten our minds and help this troubled world. With metta and smiles.
I’m not sure that I really can as I’ve never actually been a mendicant so I’m going to struggle. Hopefully a passing mendicant can put right any misconceptions I have. With that said …
I think that the idea is that in the EBTs you don’t have the idea of things like Sangharajas, branch monasteries, or even the idea of the abbot of a monastery. The structure of the Sangha is very flat and not hierarchical in the way we see it often portrayed today.
So all the monasteries are independent and you have local Sangha meetings in the boundary of the sima (I think).
All the bhikkhunis (or bhikkhus if it is a male monastery) are equal and they all have an equal say when something (of importance) needs to be decided. If any one of the mendicants disagrees (votes against), then the proposal doesn’t go forward. Everyone has to agree.
So it’s any mendicant that is present in the sima at the time that has a say. If a mendicant is away traveling then they don’t get a vote. A visiting mendicant does get a vote I think.
If a mendicant disagrees with all the other mendicants, I believe that they can abstain and allow the vote to go through if they want.
Sorry if that all turns out to be totally wrong, but that’s my current understanding.
