Analayo: "Meditation Maps, Attainment Claims, and the Adversities of Mindfulness"

After reading some of the comments here, I thought it may be worthwhile to check out the Video. I have to say it was pretty disappointing. To me it seemed more like an airing of grievances rather than addressing any substantive issues. The premise seemed to be defense against unfair attack.

Because of the tone, I only watched about the first quarter. If the issues are to be discussed in a serious manner, I think it is essential to have both parties there, as in a discussion/debate, or an exchange in writing, rather than assertions based on hearsay. Quite frankly the first section felt like listening to gossip (my side of ‘the story’ etc).

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He thinks of attainments as a universal phenomena, and therefore he seeks an objective criteria to confirm his claims of attainment, and when his claims are measured against the original/objective source and shown to be false he gets offended and finds necessary to defend himself before the public who are eager to hear what he had to say. So, its all about him and his noble universalism covered under high sounding ideals such as “clinical science” and “helping others”.

At least he was honest when he said that Ven Analayo told him that he has no issues with him sharing his subjectivity/personal experience without claiming to be an Arahant.

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Can you explain what you mean by universal/universalism in this context please?

Ingram describes his approach as “perennial” in the sense that insight experiences are cross culture/religion which somehow justifies the universality of his maps of meditation. This is why he made sure to portray Ven Analayo as anti perennialism and made sure to present the Buddha’s teachings as “universal”. He also defined Buddhism as “the science of mind” because it suits his narrative.

This is the problem with those who try to mix Buddhism with science in my opinion to gain public appeal. In our modern age, science and humanism and universalism go side by side and are often presented as the saviors of humanity,. Ven Analayo told Ingram that if you want to share your subjective meditative experiences then go ahead without claiming Buddhist attainments, and if you want to use your maps of insight meditation in clinical research, then do not use Buddhist terminology.

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I would add that Bhikkhu Analayo is not really that anti-perrenialist as Daniel Ingram puts it. You can listen to this short interview with Bhikkhu Analayo how he is open towards mahayana traditions for example. He just advocates for not mixing them, to respect their plurality, while not claiming superiority of any. In general this interview with Analayo is very relevant to this thread, so I highly recommend lending it an ear :slight_smile:

He gives a similie of various beautiful, unique flowers. And that mixing them is like putting them into a blender and getting a grey mass. And he preffers to stay them in their unique beauty and cohesiveness, without claiming that any one is better than another, but that having this variety is good. I would say it is a very open approach for a theravadin and human being in general. He also says to not mix early buddhism with others, so we know differences.

Not that I agree with that fully (Because I’m not against wise perrenialism at all and I wouldn’t call mixing flowers getting a grey mass, thou I see a clear potential danger of such mixing!), but even still stance of Bhikkhu Analayo is very far from being a “zelous theravadin” like Ingram put that in first sentences of his interview…

As some of you stated, it is clear that Ingram just defends himself and is very anxious about his ego, which seems ironic in context of his Arahanthood claim. It really wouldn’t be an issue if he just said he’s still on the path, but then probably we wouldn’t heard of him and there would not be this situation.

Anyway, it is all so unfair to Bhikkhu Analayo from my perspective that I’m not willing to watch the whole interview with Ingram. Besides 3 hours is a little too much as a response to a short article. Making a 3 hour video is clearly directed towards his fans and not towards people who are not his fans and are simply interested in essence of his answer.

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You expressed my sentiments exactly. After about 30 minutes I lost interest. I think it’s kind of a tempest in a teapot. There are lots of relatively high profile people out there teaching “Buddhism” that, when compared seriously to the suttas and to the overall message and trajectory of the Buddha’s path, doesn’t pass the tests. Somebody comes up with new path and a scholar monk addresses these inequities and that’s that. Over time other teachers will say things and others will point out the flaws. I’m grateful that there are scholar monks who devote their lives to study and practice of the Dhamma to help dolts like me head in the right direction and not get sidetracked.

I also agree that a discussion/debate between the two would be more useful, but again, a tempest in a teapot. I’m reminded of the debate between Stephen Batchelor and the Venerable Brahmali. It was great to see the Venerable Brahmali shine light on the underbelly of Secular Buddhism but in the end we all just move on, some down the eightfold path, some down the Secular Buddhist path. Hopefully, that debate will help some seekers to move towards Right View.

In the end, those who have eyes to see will see the fruit.

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I just emailed Ven Analayo to check whether this was correct. It is not. What happened was a meditation teacher sent Analayo a copy of Ingram’s book, apparently in the hope that he would write a critique. But there was no mention of “damaging credibility” or “making sure nobody ever believes you again”.

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Would you care to paste whole email, it would be more direct information rather than just relation?

Also, maybe it would be good to try to arrange some one on one public discussion between them, as the accusations that fly are serious - and both are quite public persons, though in different communities.

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No, it’s a private communication. What I wrote is what he said, and I asked for his permission to say so publicly.

Don’t both-sides it. What happened is that Ingram made a false claim and Analayo corrected him. It’s not a matter requiring discussion, it’s a matter requiring an acknowledgement and withdrawal of the false claims.

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That was not my intention, sorry I didn’t put it in better words.

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No worries. We live in days where the truth is under threat from all sides, so taking care with the small things is important. :pray:

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Bhante, glad you clarified this. I was also going to do so. It’s really quite crazy (and sad) what Ingram is doing and teaching (in so many ways…) I only watched the first few minutes of his video above, that was more than enough! in the beginning he also mischaracterized ven Analayo’s position on the insight knowleges, which anyone who reads ven Analayo’s paper on the topic will see.

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Ep73: Daniel Ingram - Dangerous and Delusional?

After watching about half of this video, I think the question mark in the title could be removed…

I saw this book cover years ago, and just shook my head. The only thing I can say is that I would recommend that people read the EBT’s and flex their wisdom muscles.

There are many people who are not deliberate charlatans, but who are deeply mistaken and deluded about their own experiences. Because they are so (wrongly) convinced of themselves, they may project a dangerous confidence that is able to lead others astray.

Because Ingram’s claims are being made so publicly, and are tied to commercial interests, I feel that it is appropriate for Ven. Analayo to provide some comparison between Ingram’s teachings and the EBT’s. It also helps to bring to light that not everything sold with a veneer of Buddhism or mindfulness should be accepted uncritically.

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In what way? Could you provide examples?

Ingram is so clearly not even close to arahantship. He’s using language about attacks, war, clearly feels strong identification with his “self,” sounds very overall ego-driven and defensive.

It also seems like he genuinely doesn’t understand Anālayo’s core concern because he’s so fixated on his belief of universalism…EDIT: I watched further he just explicitly doesn’t believe the value of “the orthodoxy” and definitely wants to mishmash any and all traditions to fit his experience and needs. This person truly believes that he knows more and better than the EBTs.

This really wouldn’t have to be so far escalated if he simply dropped his claims of attainment and just did his own thing.

Btw the interviewer seems to not be bought in… See him minute 49 and minute 59 and 1:34 for example.

I hope that the integrity of EBTs can prevail through the modern brainwashing techniques of youtube, etc.

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He’s selling his book. He’s part of a research group. He’s trying to raise “tens or hundreds of millions of dollars” to do scientific clinical research on " a “range of practices and traditions” in a longitudinal study.

BTW I think he’s more motivated by keeping his credibility and ego intact than financial interest.

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The book is available free online, so nobody needs to buy it. Also, I don’t think he could earn anything meaningful from it… it’s not GRR Martin or S King :wink:
I doubt event B. Bodhi’s translations earn anything significant.

True, he is. But if it’s supposed to be science, they will have to do research on many meditators, not just Ingram, so if there is anything to be found it will be found anyway (even if it’s only limited to his way of teaching). And if someone will not accept or agree with whatever science they do there is one supreme option - do better science.

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Yes, that’s what I got from it as well. I did not watch the entire video but no where did I hear any kind of acknowledgement like “maybe I kind of started this by insulting so many in my book”. Oh well…

Personally, I am not at all concerned about Daniel’s teaching and beliefs. These kind of quasi-Buddhist offshoots have popped up in every culture ever since the Buddha walked this rock of ours. It is quite possible that Daniel has unintentionally introduced more people to the EBT’s than many others who have tried so much to ‘spread the word’. Why? Because we aren’t a bunch of sheep. Daniel’s take on Buddhism will never appeal to very many. Does spending hours and hours doing rapid noting practice (at least 10 times per second!) years on end really have any mass appeal? Especially when the result is being hyper-sensitive to any kind of criticism? When practice does not deliver results people look elsewhere.

To Daniel’s credit, his website has always been a completely open platform to discuss Buddhism – even when it criticizes his own views. I am confident that Bhikkhu Analayo could have presented his views directly on DharmaOverground and been allowed to do so for as long as he wanted – while engaging in a give and take open discussion at the same time. I think the possibility of having such open discussions was the original hope for that site.

The downside of his website is that his views permeate its very structure such that opposing views are often interpreted as corruptions or partial view of Daniel’s ‘true’ teaching – I don’t think this is his intention – just the result of his beliefs. And I think this one-sided view is what causes many to seek elsewhere.

Bring them on I say. We need renegades – where would we be without them? I guess still doing sacrifices and fire rituals.

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I had a listen to this interview. “Guru Viking” seemed to have done his homework (obviously had read the Bhikkhu Analayo article and related papers) and generally seems like a good interviewer. He made a passable attempt at representing the Analayo viewpoint. However, overall it wasn’t IMO very satisfactory. I’d reckon the interviewer has a broad knowledge of spirituality but I don’t think he had the specific depth here to act as a really effective devil’s advocate. Daniel Ingram is articulate and was well able to talk in response, but some of his answers seemed a bit weak to me. I don’t think he was really properly put over the coals! As @Viveka said above, I think only some kind of exchange (IMO preferably written) actually between Ingram and Analayo would really be informative. I see mention that Ingram (and some of academic collaborators I think) had sent a letter to the journal in response, but the journal chose not to publish it or hasn’t yet anyway. Some kind of back and forth written exchange would tease things out, but hopefully not as long as that mammoth sequence of articles and responses between Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Analayo on bhikkhuni ordination! :slight_smile: (see the thread here).

The general field is such a large and confusing overlap of different academic areas: a strange blend of the study early religious texts and multiple layers of later Buddhist developments and accretions, mixing in areas like mindfulness that somewhat overlap with Buddhism and bring in clinical practice and some degree of empiricism (though mindfulness seems mostly full of small-scale convenience studies whose true utility might be a bit questionable). Plus Daniel Ingram definitely falls into the mould of spiritual teacher (seems intelligent and relatively charismatic; it generally needs someone like that to form the nucleus of a group). Follows the typical profile of a person a long experience of different systems and meditation practices who was dissatisfied in some ways with what he found, and so developed his own system, attracted followers, who with similar techniques and map seem to arrive at similar experiences to what he had. It doesn’t sound much out of keeping with various non-Buddhist schools and teachers in the Buddha’s time (even the Buddha himself would generally follow this pattern). There was a lot of talk of empiricism in the interview, but I’d wonder how much of Ingram’s MCTB book has been empirically investigated (mostly it seems to have arisen out of his own experiences). Of course, followers seem to have replicated his experiences. That’s a kind of empirical replication, but that would realistically not be unexpected for any spiritual teacher who develops his own system (serious followers should really be ending up in similar spiritual territory).

The talk of raising funding to academically investigate all of this is heading in an empirical direction:


More broadly, I’d tend to think that perhaps some of phenomena described in his book, dark nights, arising and passing and cycling through phases of these might well be a phenomenon that arises with a degree of frequency in a percentage of people who do some heavy duty mediation and retreats. This continual cycling doesn’t sound terribly appealing tbh (or even always being an arahant in terms of how Ingram would understand it). I suppose Ingram’s group is probably a useful resource and reservoir of knowledge for people doing intensive retreats (connected with the group or not) who find themselves in this difficult territory. Chicken and egg though; maybe others find themselves in this territory in the first place because of Ingram’s book? :man_shrugging:

A proper scientific study of this cycling phenomenon could be interesting. It has occurred to me previously that this phenomenon sounds awfully like some kind of milder version of bipolar disorder (the rough duration of cycles and the ups and downs and high energy and low energy periods does sound rather in a similar place). Can some types of prolonged intensive meditation rewire the brain so as to trigger a neurological pattern rather like in bipolar disorder but evidently milder with practitioners usually relatively functional (though not always)? I’d be fascinated to see any brain imaging studies etc. comparing and contrasting the two phenomena (are similar brain areas or neurochemicals involved?).

A push back from more traditional Buddhist viewpoints isn’t exactly unexpected (if any movement anywhere gets big enough that’s pretty much inevitable from competitors). The Buddha himself wasn’t averse to criticizing other competing spiritual schools in his day. Ingram has also well able to dish it out himself; e.g. several paragraphs in his book in the section MCTB The Theravada Four Path Model and the first paragraph in MCTB The Action Models come to mind.

As pointed out earlier in the thread by @mikenz66 , his progress model clearly departs from traditional understandings of path stages and what an arahant is. Part of the defence in the interview was that Mahayana does this and that Analayo himself didn’t even quite agree with every single criterion of arahantship in the Pali texts, e.g. a lay person having to ordain immediately on becoming an arahant or otherwise attain parinibbana.

Am not sure I buy this argument. Mahayana’s broad understanding of what an arahant is does not greatly depart from the early texts. It’s just that they set up an alternative and what they consider a superior goal, that of Buddhahood (and at times can denigrate and pick holes in the arhant ideal; though I think they still agree that an arahant transcends the mundane world, including sexual desire, and is morally fully developed). The early texts are still there, it’s just newer ones arrived along later that they consider to mostly supersede the earlier ones. Ingram has done some radical redefining of some of these ideas but still borrows some of the traditional clothes and draws on traditional terminology. I don’t think he can be surprised if some who are more traditional take issue if he’s not putting clear water between his system and theirs.

As I’ve said earlier in this thread, I thought Analayo in his article was often a bit too personal and I didn’t particularly like how he used quotes from Ingram (at times when reading the article I wondered were some of the quotes being used in context). I generally am a big fan of his work but I’m not sure if this was his finest. Nonetheless, there are some decent questions posed and points made in the Analayo article. IMO some of the responses to these in the GuruViking interview were a bit weak. IMO there’s generally a bit too much playing to the converted in that (will play well with those steeped in his system I guess), a general vibe about the unfairness of the Analayo article, an attack on a good man etc. :slight_smile: Analayo could I think have approached the writing of the article better, but recalling various sections of the MCTB, I’m not sure Ingram can exactly claim the high ground here either. A person who is well able to dish it out should also be well able to take it too, and then just step up and vigorously defend his viewpoint without too much complaint.

I’d rather like to see Ingram respond in a much more rigorous and measured way to the points in Analayo’s article. Some considered public back and forth between Ingram (and his academic collaborators) and Analayo, points and counterpoints, IMO preferably written, could be very interesting (and perhaps generate a bit more light than the interview). I’d be rather surprised if Analayo agrees to some kind of head-to-head public debate (I can’t recall him ever doing this and I don’t imagine it’s his style). However, he definitely has done the public academic article-based tête-à-tête before (a pity the journal in question didn’t publish Ingram’s letter in response but no doubt there would be other venues, even putting a preprint up on a website if nothing else).

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Ven. Sujato,

Regarding the alleged falsity of “we are going to make sure that nobody ever believes you again,” do you mean that Ven. Analayo has demonstrated to you its falsity by sending you his email exchanges with Daniel and/or recordings of their two oral exchanges? Or do you just mean that you personally prefer to believe a fellow monk’s version of events rather than Ingram’s?

Cheers,
Snežana