Another take on Satipatthana and Jhana

Discussion
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I don’t mind, but there are others who know more about Master Yin Shun’s ideas than I do. Nevertheless, I’ll give it a shot.

I understand Yin Shun to have suggested that the Saṃyukta Āgama/Saṃyutta Nikāya was the first collection of scriptures. The overall framework was that of the four noble truths and the three aṅgas. (For more details, see Bhante Sujato’s “A History of Mindfulness”.) As suttas were collected, they would be classified according to this scheme. Over time, however, this structure reached its use-by date and was changed to the structure we have now, that is, the four Āgamas/Nikāyas. During this process, suttas would have been reallocated to the new collections, so that the root Saṃyukta Āgama would have lost part of its content. At the same time, new suttas continued to accrue to each collection.

Because of this moving around and continuing accrual of suttas, it is not possible to put forward a general principle that the suttas of the Saṃyukta Āgama, as we have it now, are earlier than the suttas of the other Āgamas. Rather, we need to evaluate each sutta on its own terms to decide its antiquity.

Might it not be the case, nevertheless, that the suttas of the Saṃyukta Āgama are on average older than those of the other Āgamas? Perhaps, but it would be difficult to come to a definite conclusion. To me the right approach is to look at the suttas on an individual basis.

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Good idea indeed.
If, e.g. one considers carefully Satipatthana sutta in MN, DN (and their corresponding Agama texts), it is obviously an expanded version of Satipatthana. The earliest version is found in the SN/SA suttas, e.g. SN 47.2 for Satipatthana, SN 54.1 for Anapanasati (cf. pp. 215-218, 225-227, Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism ).

So, if one really wants to practice the Buddha teachings on Sati, it will be better to follow closely the above-mentioned SN/SA suttas.

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Ven Brahmali wrote Perhaps, but it would be difficult to come to a definite conclusion. To me the right approach is to look at the suttas on an individual basis.

My take, too, I am no scholar, neither expert, just glancing thru the suttas, even say Sutta nipata, magnificent suttas there, like in Atthakavagga, and parayanavagga, Buddha is right there, but then there is Ratana sutta? Some naive folks lump entire Sutta nipata as not early, based on one single questionable sutta, or a few. Also take Samyutta nikaya, There is Bojjhangasamuyutta, its writings helped me most in the mapping of Buddha’s mind, very enlightening. But consider SN 46.57, the suttas subtitled In and Out breathing. It begins, I am using BB version.

At Savathi "Bhikkhus, when the perception of a skeleton is developed and cultivated, it is of great fruit and benefit and so forth…this entire series …SN 46.58 titled The "Worm Infested corpse"SN 46. 59 titled “The Livid corpse” SN 46.60 titled the “Fissured Corpse” SN 47. 61 “The Bloated corpse…”

These to me sound like a leakage from the commentaries, the resemblance to late Theravadin commentaries?

Seems nothing was safe from tampering, not even the Samyutta nikaya, reason why one cannot conclude that entire Samyutta Nikaya is old. BB himself in his comments on Sutta nipata says there were these fragments of gathas floating around, and they were gathered and compiled to make up suttas or add to an existing sutta to jazz it up. Jazz it up, are my words. Does anyone here truly believe that all the suttas had Buddha’s seal…

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Viveka wrote VivekaModerator

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6d

[quote=“lankaputra, post:36, topic:15672”]
So let us not waste time trying to prove ourselves
[/quote]

I was going to come back to elucidate a little bit further, but it is so nice to see some of you are already there :slight_smile:

For me it is not even about proving oneself, or ones idiosyncratic way into the teachings, rather the acknowledgement that there are many ways to understanding - as has been mentioned in above posts.

The EBTs are a UNIQUE and whole system for understanding and then moving beyond the suffering in Samsara.
I was not trying to prove myself. While the EBTs are unique and a whole system for understanding, its content, never clarified to me how exactly to meditate, how exactly to practice the 37 awakening factors. I was forced to rely on other material to understand the EBTs. It seems it is the opinion of most scholars that the two major Satipathana suttas are lately manufactured elegant offerings. There are several contradictions in EBTs, although SC appears to find all suttas are in harmony. If I have to strictly adhere to all content in EBTs and not use any other material, that makes it impossible for me to continue with this discussion on Early Buddhist meditations, only thing I am interested in. I enjoyed interacting here, and appreciated your contributions to the thread. It is hard for me to engage here if SC insists, that all that is in the EBTs was taught by Buddha. I find a heavy Upanisad influence in some suttas, which tell me, work of other teachers crept into the EBTs.
With love

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Greetings BoP :slight_smile:
It is so very easy for misunderstandings to occur on a forum like this. The topics are complicated, language is a challenge, let alone when we mix in our different perspectives and views :slight_smile:

My comment was not meant as criticism, but rather a call to be less dogmatic about the ‘right’ way to make progress. And even then in a gentle way…

By this I meant that the Buddha taught a body of works (the EBT’s). It is from these that other later teachings have been extrapolated. As such, we prefer to use these source teachings. And as you rightly point out, to rigorously investigate the scholarship in determining which are the authentic teachings by the Buddha. It is great to use other teachings where they are of assistance, but care needs to be taken that they give the same message as those of the Buddha. There have been many instances where teachings evolve away from the Buddhas Truth, and without skill and diligence, one can be led down an unbeneficial path. This is all :slight_smile: Because, our minds are still subject to delusion, there can be a tendency to always go for an ‘easy’ solution, and to make choices based on our own forms of delusion (picking only teachings that we already agree with). But this isn’t always reliable. Given the ultimate goal is liberation from Samsara, we acknowledge the Buddhas primacy in knowledge about the reality of things, and hence the preservation of the Buddhas words is of primary importance.

As such, comparing and contrasting other works with those of the Buddha, striving for clarity and understanding, is a very useful thing to do… :slight_smile:

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In relation to early buddhist meditation, It is just this Bare Cognition described MN 18, or its unpacking as in MN 38 that leads to liberation. Satipatthana rightly comprehended, or the 4 buddhist jhanas are some means, if a method is required. But it really works like a methodless method. Think of Bahia. Buddha says in the opening sutta of Samyutta Nikaya, by not halting, and by not swimming one gets to the other shore.

MN 18 addresses the theory, MN 38 does the rest by showing one how to reverse DO. End of becoming!

Point is once one starts thinking, there is no stopping, process has to be stopped before the cows are out the door. Closing the door afterwards, as everyone knows, is pointless because the cows have already left. Mental proliferation has begun.

Like an object pushed downhill, needing a tremendous force, to make it stop, heavy thought is like this, heavy with mental proliferation…

But to get this idea of Bare cognition, Vinnana Matta, across to some Theravadins, the tradition itself gets in the way. Kid gloves approach does not work.

When I say tradition I also mean misinterpreted suttas, even the right ones. A sutta comes to mind, MN 140.

Even though Samyutta nikaya is considered antique, nothing was spared. Has anyone studied MN 140, I mean paying attention to every detail? I have too many ideas, incorporated in the comment, which I had to in order to indicate where I was going, but let us consider these, one at a time, …let the other ideas sit in the background, for now. Can we discuss MN 140?

Teachings are vast, since SC is concerned with EBT’s only, I must warn that I have not read, Long length, and Numerical Discourses and Sutta nipata in Chinese. I cannot find English translations.

Ultimately no one can prove anything to no one else. Success of one’s practice depends on how well one learns to put brakes on Papanca or Mental Proliferations, or Abhisankaroti.

Be well my friends in Dhamma.

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Thank you, the practice is about transforming the cognitive apparatus. You have clearly understood SN47.42. It is matter of starving (what we are constantly feeding) the machinery that generates consciousness. If you understood it this way, you have come a long way. I see parallels of this thinking in the way 4 buddhist jhanas, are set up. Freeing the mind, of the built up junk, of views etc. Nothing interferes at this point…an emptiness filled with peace. Mind is freed of the disturbances that arise due to impingements on the sense bases.
Do you see it like this? I like to hear your thoughts. But if anyone introduces Arupas into the discussion, all bets are off.
I would not know how to proceed.
Take care.

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I’ve always struggled with “concentration” as a translation of samadhi. It’s sounds like a sort of furrowed-brow thing, which is so far away from the actual experience as to be laughable.
In simple terms, I associate samadhi with stillness, and sati with movement. Parallel to the two swift messengers in SN35.204, ie tranquillity and insight.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.than.html

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Yes, two swift passengers was my mantra as I began delving into the nikaya… it was easy, with time concentration became the trickiest word to figure out. This is why folks have so much trouble with jhana, I mean the 4 buddhist jhanas… I don’t pay attention to the immaterial samapatthis, that is not Buddha’s teaching. It is the teaching of subsequent teachers, who found it hard to figure out the 4 jhanas, so they asked their Upanisad friends who had no problem with concentration. They coached the buddhists well with formless meditations, to the extent that it made an entry to the Nikayas.
How Theravada became elegant Hinduism? don’t get offended, I have a streak of humor in me. I mean Hinduism with a different goal, this time nibbana.
Problem is if you concentrate like in Hinduism, the consciousness gets trapped in those domains, and one lands in Brahma worlds. Of course the meditator has a most elegant, exquisite mood throughout meditation, and feels fabulous afterwards. But that mood is limited, it is constructed.
Let us take the 8th factor of the 8-fold path or the 10-fold. It is called Samma Samadhi but it gets lost in translation. Translators call it Right Concentration. Now do you see the problem? So some walk away thinking the mind has to be stilled. But what does stillness mean? No movement at all? Not quite. Think of the metaphor for the second jhana. A pristine lake at the zenith of a mountain, fed by a fountain, generated internally, fed by its own inborn currents, not by rain not by streams flowing from west, east or whatever. The cool jet of water springing from within, would make the cool water drench, steep, fill, and pervade the lake. No part of the lake is left unpervaded, by that coolness.
Will you call that body of water still? Not quite, there is that movement of water currents within. So jhanic concentration is like this. It is better to call it Samadhi than concentration. The word concentration misleads. Samdhi is a dynamic state. This pleasure is dynamite, just joking… it is afternoon here. It is a dynamic Piti, not a concentrated Piti.
I like the word “furrowed-brow thing” you are my kind of guy. Phrase is quite well suited to how concentration is used in buddhist circles. A “furrowed-brow thing?”
It is not a problem if you are working in a Chem. lab. Let us take salt for example. 1Mole of NaCL is its Molecular wt dissolved in 1 liter of H20. Pretty staight forward, it communicates something useful. But soteriologicallly, and in trying to fathom Buddha’s Dhamma? Do you get my drift so far? I shall stop now, but will continue after you respond.
Take care

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Maybe chemistry is a good analogy if we’re mixing different elements? Tranquillity and insight perhaps?
Can you recommend any suttas on this topic?

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Martin wrote List of useful suttas??? Formidable task, This topic? did you mean the topic of the thread?
let me try, I’ve mentioned several seminal suttas on this thread. I read Honeyball sutta MN 18, ten years ago, but I am still finding new meaning in it, ten years later, as my understanding improves.
Bahia needed only one sutta to relinquish the sterility of life, or its loneliness, others many more.
Instead of giving you a list, let me try a different strategy. Have you tried the 4 buddhist jhanas? DN 2, Samannaphala?
Do not let folks mislead you, by dragging in Burmese methods and so forth, vipassana? Doctrinal dog fights???
Let Buddha be our teacher, Ven. Sujato is right here. Have you watched this, not just one time?

My best teacher was the 4 similes of the Jhana series, what more clarity does one need, if one pays attention.
In MN 83, Buddha says to Ananda “Do not be the last man standing” Unlike the king of Mithila who instituted the kind of practice that leads to births in heavenly realms I have instituted the kind of practice that leads to disenchantment, that leads to…dhamma cycling…Ananada do not be the last man standing!
The Good practice is broken by a virtuous person when he thinks “I cannot obtain Arahantship” and does not exert energy. It is broken by the corrupt one…
Sutta is loaded with possibility. Buddha is dangling the carrot.
In Dasuttara sutta we find the 8 qualities of the sober person.
Its inspiring lines end with
This Dhamma is for the wise, not for the unwise;
This Dhamma is for the precise and the one who delights in exactness, not for the diffused or the one who delights in diffusion.
What does it mean when sutta says inexact, or diffusion?
Is it when one is confused by teachings other than that of Buddha found in EBTs.
Confused by formless meditations, that drags one to heavens and brahma worlds…King Mithila, legendary???
How clever of Buddha! he never failed the faithful follower.
With love :leaves:
PS Given time, I will try to bring in suttas that have helped me, a list as such without an additional note may not be that useful. Thank you for your thought on insight and serenity, and concentration… Might absence of Papanca, be another major contributing factor?

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True, anyone can read, have you tried it? Do you think anyone will understand though?
Be well

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Thank you for the link to the talk by Bhante sujato :slight_smile: It was a ‘pleasure’ to watch :smiley: :sunflower: :pray:

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A lot of the above sounds very reasonable to me. I generally have tried to stay away from writings about the suttas or academic works. I read the suttas almost every day and gradually am building up more familiarity with the Nikayas (making linkages, slowly making more sense of it all). I don’t want to be handed it all on a plate by a particular author (with their own particular idiosyncratic understandings). Eventually, I’ll probably branch out to reading more of the Vissudhimagga and Vimuttimagga and secondary (like Polak and Wynne) works to try to make sense of things that still don’t make sense (not for a while though). I suppose I have dipped into other works quite a bit (including the Vissudhimagga and Vimuttimagga) for ideas relating to meditation practice.

I wasn’t familiar with the term “Vinnana Matta” (I have little Pali). That means “mere” or “just” for “matta” and the usual consciousness (or perhaps awareness) for “vinnana”? Your post seems to be heading in some direction (am not entirely sure of the intended end point though).

You have mentioned the arupa jhanas recently. So far they have read like added extras to me in the suttas (extra attainments/practice for some arahants; I can recall a passage where it gave numbers on the number of arahants who had various attainments and it seemed like those with arupa jhana were well in the minority). I’m generally aware of theories that perhaps these are a later addition. No strong views on this (seems all well beyond my pay-grade at this point :wink: ). So maybe the point you have on “Vinnana Matta” relates somehow to the cessation of feeling and perception stage?

Otherwise, those are nice suttas you quote.

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Dear Suaimhneas, You highlighted Vinnana Matta, and Arupa samapathis, always to the point, you are, I admire that about you. Both need a while to discuss, we have all the time, if not one life time, then more. Bahia got the first in an instant.
I like to revisit the selected phrase from Dasuttara briefly. What info does it provide?
Keeping the 5 precepts does it make one a Buddhist. Passage gives a few important clues as to what constitutes the true buddhist. Eight thoughts of a great man. The real buddhist is this great man.
Precisely and concisely translated:
1. has few desires 2. is content 3. is secluded 4. has aroused vigor 5. has established mindfulness 6. has attained absorption 7. has gained insight 8. delights in the lack of Papanca. Presented in a hierarchy…So before one embarks on the final process of ridding oneself of Papanca, it is important to have insight, not afterwards. That insight is obtained through Samma Ditthi and Samma Samkappa, the panna factors of 8-fold.
One can say the sutta on right view MN 9, proclaimed by Sariputta, incorporates the entire doctrine inclusive of seminal role played by the nutrients, in propping up consciousness. Here again SN 47.42 ‘Samudaya’ from Satipatthana Samyutta fits into the puzzle perfectly.
Forth factor from Dasuttara “Aroused vigor” summarizes all of the 37 factors, Iddhipada! provides the fuel for jet propulsion, if we think of practice as something to be taken off. Kaccana had mastered this quality as no other. What better person to explain Vinnana Matta, the idea embedded in Madhupindika? “cognitive deconditioning”, reduction of septic consciousness. As a first step to understanding Mindfulness of the 37 it helps to spend some time with the related Samyuttas, in Mahavagga. This will give you an idea why Buddha said in his last moments “Meditate Bhikkhus meditate, this is our advice to you”
Bojjhanga samyutta inspires. It starts with a curious tale, have you read SN 46.1 Himalayas?. I am still not sure that I understand it completely. It starts off as a mythic tale Based upon the Himalayas, the nagas nurture their bodies and acquire strength. When they have nurtured their bodies and acquired strength, then they enter the pools, and so forth, eventually the ocean. There they achieve greatness and expansiveness of body. It would be fun to brainstorm together. What are chat groups for, if not to break through to end of suffering?

Buddhist goal is to terminate Papanca SN 43.14, or the mind’s tendency to form views, thus reinforcing consciousness. Puthujjana’s thinking is carried out by inserting a subject and object into any thought, and splitting the thought in this manner? Split awareness? vi-nnana, junk feeding consciousness. Why the popcorn?
Goal is to kill this consciousness, leading to freedom from papanca, another name for Nibbana. Kill the consciousness before it murders you. In Radhasamyutta SN 23.1 Buddha says to Radha When there is consciousness Radha, there might be Mara, or the killer…therefore Radha, see consciousness as Mara.
"Those who see it thus see rightly" Buddha always to the point, not mincing words.
In SN 23.2 the great Arahant, writes "Scatter, demolish consciousness like little boys and girls do the sand castles they build on the shore, cherish, claim as their own"
Is anything ours? Budha’s message, “All that we cherish, yet nothing is ours”
This shore of samsara…
Sand castles of our lives! title for another TV series that will keep us absorbed, not absorbed as in the four Buddhist jhanas.
Have a beautiful day!

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Martin wrote “It’s sounds like a sort of furrowed-brow thing” This continues to inspire me, like the morning light gradually falling on the woods, enlightening. We cannot get into the habit of thinking of words like “concentration” in a static fashion, if it is bhavana we are concerned with, its original meaning being constant improvement. In the early buddhist meditation, meaning of words evolve as a meditator evolves, leaving behind a little more of the arsenal of the cognitive apparatus. Buddhist jhana is not a case of sitting for 10 min, or 7 days, getting out of it and thinking back, of what happened during the sitting, that is retarded thinking or donkey thinking. It should transform the cognitive apparatus a little more each time. How? by diminishing sterile mental constructions. Thus components of the concentrated states will vary… as meditator progresses. Reverting to Chemistry, let us say the chemist is purifying Radium, at a certain point it is 100% pure Radium, its radiation killing everything that comes within its range. Likewise in buddhist jhana, as purification proceeds, it is killing off effluents gradually. Now if there is a lead shield intervening, all bets are off. Might some folks have heavily built lead shields, and others none at all, so the latter can easily progress in their spiritual explorations? What might some obstructions be? the mind set on Arupas? that the Arupas is the way to meditate? Upanishadic influence? Wrong views? A lead shield of wrong views? DN 1 Brahmajala.
Dear Martin you inspired me. Can you come up with an expression for “Ignorance” that communicates the meaning embedded in “Moha?” more precisely?
Loba, dhosa, Moha? Why are poisons split into three like this? Does not Lobha and Dosha fall under Moha or ignorance? If so, should not these be reclassified? so Moha is all encompassing? A better phrase for Moha or ignorance?
With love :duck:

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Might it be better to focus on ignorance (avijja) rather than delusion (moha)? It seems more fundamental.

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Martin You wrote " Might it be better to focus on ignorance (avijja) rather than delusion (moha)? It seems more fundamental?"
You are quite right. In the literature sometimes they appear as synonyms, sometimes not, hence some confusion. You come over, and drag me towards a piece of the puzzle, that was missing.
Ignorance or Avijja is the overarching principle,(first factor of DO) reason we are born, and craving, which is the result of delusion (moha) is the 8th factor of DO.
One idiot sustains the other idiot by its stupidity. Moha or delusion which is a son of Avidya, does not directly participate but gives rise to Craving which sustains the cycle of DO begun by Avidya. A son providing a grandchild, to empower the work of Dad, to keep us stuck in samsara.
Avidya or ignorance is our not knowing 4NT, not understanding the cycling of DO, avidya is the underlying factor for the whole scenario of samsara. Moha or delusion sits on the sidelines and creates craving which sustains the vicious cycle.
A Father and Son company, a neat pair, their work discreetly executed while we sit in the dark. Moha or delusion can be thought of as a mental concomitant (AKA Cetasika) that arises and dies due to the overall underlying condition of Avidya, the rising and falling delusion gives rise to cravings that rise and fall, fueling the engine of DO, short lived but extremely potent, since even if short lived, it relentlessly is born to sustain the cycle. Birth and rebirth of craving, the story of our lives.
You are the brain behind this thinking, congratulations My dear Martin!
In relation to the thread begun, Panna supposedly kills Avidya or ignorance. But Avidya is too big to kill, just like that. However in Eight Fold Path, we do develop Panna or Wisdom, that takes care of Avidya by killing its grandchild “craving” the child of Moha or delusion. Now all this is related to “Son’s flesh” a theme of the thread. This Dad is feeding on the grandson’s flesh.
One can think of a tragic mythic Greek tale, Dependent origination comes undone.
But how does Panna kill craving, the 8th factor of DO? By working through Samadhi factors of 8 fold path. Wisdom and Samadhi rest upon the shoulders of each other. The relentless practitioner roasts craving like marshmallows on the fire pit of meditation. Roasted unto dust. DO falls apart, Papanca undone, everything that seemed to matter renunciated, an awesome peace, it is so peaceful, that one cannot find words to say.
With love
PS A case where Avidya and Moha appear as synonymous in EBTs
Bhikkhus, i do not perceive any single hindrance other than the hindrance of ignorance by which humankind is so obstructed and for so long a time runs on, and wanders in samsara. It is indeed through the hindrance of ignorance that humankind is obstructed and for a long time runs on and wanders in Samsara.
No other single thing exists like the hindrance of delusion, which so obstructs humankind and makes it wander on.
From Itivutakka 14

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I generally find it more productive to focus on developing something (wisdom, or 7 factors of enlightenment, or whatever), rather than trying to get rid of something (ignorance, or the hindrances).
Go with what your heart says, intuition is often more powerful than intellect on these questions. Sometimes simplicity is powerful.

One of my Tibetan teachers used to talk a lot about “spaciousness”, it was an eyes-open meditation tradition. Its a Vajrayana thing, embracing rather than limiting, looking outwards rather than inwards. I don’t think there is a direct equivalent in the suttas, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Wider horizons can be useful.

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Have you read Anālayo’s Compassion and Emptiness in Early Buddhism? The emptiness section is based on MN121 Culasuññayasutta
https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato
I did his recent study course on the Brahmaviharas and Emptiness, and he talked about how emptiness never got taken up in the Theravada as it did in the Mahayana, even tho it was presented by the Buddha in this and other suttas.

Here is the public link to the 40 minute guided meditations that accompanied that course. :slight_smile:

Anālayo may have written more about the non-uptake of suññata; perhaps @Robbie knows more?

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