Another take on Satipatthana and Jhana

Discussion
82

I view satipatthana and jhana as separate but complementary. Actually I find it more useful to compare samatha and vipassana, the two messengers, two sides of the samadhi coin. Samatha is an exploration of stillness, while vipassana is an exploration of movement.
Fully engaging with stillness involves withdrawing from sense-consciousness, while exploring movement reveals an underlying stillness. Or something like that!

Maybe you could recap your original thesis? What in simple terms is your take on satipatthana and jhana? How are the two reconciled or combined? Maybe you could give some bullet points?
Maybe it’s just me, but I need things spelt out clearly and simply.
I used to write a lot of technical reports for the NHS, the challenge was always communicating clearly and transparently to a wider audience - not least to NHS staff.

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I found if helpful to understand that DO is actually an elaboration of the Second Truth. So working out what we crave is more relevant than convoluted arguments about interpretation of DO. I suspect what we mostly crave is continued existence, beyond physical death. Thats why it’s a major focus for religion.

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85

I agree with you one hundred percent. And the reason why we crave is because we think we really are which is ignorance.
With Metta

86

Martin you mentioned bullet points, let me start with one to begin with. Putramansa sutta offers a key point. How we feed our consciousness! I would say Samma sati and Samma samadhi offer ways of starving that consciousness.

Let us look SN 12.64

**"
where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food
 contact
 intellectual intention
 consciousness, *where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase "
one factor to highlight is: how we tend to our consciousness, fattening it, ‘pig house of our consciousness’ or ‘pig house of delight’ pigs feed on junk? delight and craving are the junk, places where consciousness finds a homeland to thrive. During meditation one makes consciousness homeless.
Sutta continues


**“Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.”

“where there is no sorrow and affliction there is the final deliverance”

Atthi Raga sutta SN 12.64 ends like that.

Yesterday Karl_ Lew wrote under the sutta on Sand castles from Radhasamyutta

  • “It’s a tower of dyads. Consciousness feeds on itself. So the first task is to restrain the building of sand castles. Then we can settle down to watch the waves wash them all away, content in that evolution”

I wish I could write like Karl, and sail like you.

with love

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Dear Martin:
If I were to summarize my previous comment (point it like a bullet) I would say Atthiraga sutta SN 12.64 expresses concept of liberation in terms of

  • non-establishment of consciousness.

That is the goal of Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi.

Happy sailing!

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88

I’m not sure I understand “Consciousness does not land there or increase”, because it makes consciousness sound like something independent, something which can choose whether or not to get involved. Whereas generally in the suttas consciousness only arises in dependence upon conditions.

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Martin you wrote “in the suttas consciousness only arises in dependence upon conditions”
This is true, the effort involved in Samma sati or samma Samadhi is towards becoming independent of that consciousness, or in other words, to remove this dependency.
If she has succeeded entirely, she is the Arahant.
With love

90

According to discourses consciousness arises in dependence on name & form. It is the craving for name & form which sustains consciousness. The goal is to understand name form for what they truly are and be dispassionate and detached from it.
So, basically, when it is said consciousness does not establish it means a total elimination of craving.
Just my thoughts
With Metta

91

Martin regarding bullet points:
#1 Non-establishment of consciousness.
#2 Release self from dependency
#3 Glued to the notion of self by crazy glue, is a metaphor for being.
#4 A pig bathed and perfumed and laid on the best bed, still returns to the old haunts. We are a bit like this pig. We meditate, when we perfume ourselves. Afterwards we return to the pigsty of self.
#5 If you consider the links of DO as treasures, pick those up,
and shatter them, like Hanuman shattered the pearls of the necklace that Sita gifted him. Truth will reveal, that sits at the core of each pearl.
#6 Fuel the engine only scarcely, as if you were running out of fuel.

PS the 4th bullet point is based on DN 9 Potthapada sutta. The briefest excerpt since you are averse to chunky excerpts.

Potthapada asks “Lord is perception a person’s self, or is perception one thing, and self another?”
"Well Potthapada do you postulate a self?
Notice the disarming manner of Buddha’s query.
“Paccesi” Pali word used here means “fall back on” meaning “do you fall back on self”
#5 is based on Mahabharata

PSS i derived the 4rd bullet point based on DN 9, really a footnote therein.

  • "a village pig, even if bathed and perfumed in water, garlanded and laid on the best bed, will still return to the dunghill. In the same way Potthapada still returns to the idea of self "

Happy sailing!

92

Sorry I’m not following. Do you mean the goal is to make consciousness indendent of conditions, or to make consciousness unconditioned?

93

So consciousness persists, but with craving removed? Consciousness is no longer drawn to sense-objects?

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Martin you asked:
the goal is to make consciousness indendent of conditions, or to make consciousness unconditioned?
I’ve been thinking of how to reply to this for a while

I shall answer your question, with another question.
So the bullet points are

  • 2 Release self from dependency
    what is this dependency? it is the dependeny on consciousness. Bullet point #1 is
  • 1 Non-establishment of consciousness.

If non-established, it means the consciousness has evaporated it is no more. Now we are looking at the Arahant, who is free of the consciousness that we are dependent upon. If consciousness has evaporated, there is nothing that can settle on the six sense bases, right? Think of DO step Contact, Can the Arahant contact the sense bases the way we do if he has no consciousness? tricky right? but try to answer

Arahant has gone beyond the six sense bases. Let me fetch suttas that talks about this.
SN 44.3 Sariputta and Khotthita. There is a series of suttas here. 44.3-6
These are"Questions about the Arahant that do not apply to the Arahant, who is beyond the five aggregates" To summarize:
These are exchanges between Mahakotttitha and Sariputta, To high light the main points here: Mahakottitha continues to badger Sariputta about the consciousness of the Arahant. I am totally simplifying and changing words here, so the meaning may strike you. Sariputta basically replies

"One cannot talk about the Arahant that is gone beyond speech, or gone beyond the identifying with sense bases"
So when you ask me “Is the goal to make consciousness independent?” the answer can be “Yes” But if I say so, then you will think that this independent consciousness exists, which is totally misleading according to the suttas of EBTs given above.
Now I am beginning to see why Buddha dis not answer some questions

Am I confusing you more? These are difficult questions, but it is good to think about them. Through that reflection we get rid of our misconceptions.
With love.

95

If consciousness has evaporated for the Arahant, then how does the Arahant see and hear?

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Martin you just asked me If consciousness has evaporated for the Arahant, then how does the Arahant see and hear?
You asked me something that I asked you not to ask, few min ago. In the suttas I referred to, Sariputta basically says one must not ask questions about Arahant in this manner.
The Arahant has gone beyond the 5 sense bases.
Until you go beyond the 5 sense bases, you cannot know. I like this exchange with you, simply because I had grown fond of you, during our past exchanges, and your questions kind of are sincere and they educate me.
With love

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97

Exactly. It is the consciousness that is empty, signless and unestablished. Suññato, animitto , appaáč‡ihito
With Metta

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Martin will this help you more?
Sutta below consolidates my earlier comment, here presented in a different tone, more appealing,
Excerpt from Sutta Pitaka.

As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind,
goes to rest and can no longer be made known,
just so the Sage free from name & body
goes to rest and can no longer be made known with name and form
There is no measure of the one who has come to rest,
there is nothing by which they can speak of him,
when everything has been completely removed,

  • all the pathways for speech are also completely removed
    One of the Vacchagotta suttas

Now, one phrase it like this “Why no longer known?” how come? as long as the arahant is alive one can see him?

But to all intents and purposes his consciousness has evaporated, he is dead to the sensory world, if i may put it that way. He is beyond the sensory domain of optical consciousness, auditory consciousness, olfactory consciousness, Gustatory consciousness, tactile consciousness, he has no such consciousness, neither the consciousness that allows random imaginations. Papanca, is disabled.

Now i know Upanisads mentions a witness, perhaps you are influenced by that. Papanca is Samsara, release from Samsara is release from Conceptual constructions.

Sakshi SākáčŁÄ« or Shakshi or that "Pure Awareness" mentioned in Upanisads falls under conceptual constructions or Papanca.

I wrote a few lines while reflecting on this. Do you want to see that?

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in reply to Martin’s query: consciousness persists, but with craving removed? Consciousness is no longer drawn to sense-objects?
Nimal wrote: exactly, It is the consciousness that is empty, signless and unestablished. Suññato, animitto , appaáč‡ihito

Let us not confuse Martin. Are you talking about the Arahant, or a meditative state? I would reply to Martin "if craving is entirely removed, Avidya too is removed, there is nothing for consciousness to feed on. That consciousness is evaporated. Pl clarify. Are you saying the Arahant has a consciousness?

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100

Yes. Arahant has consciousness. But it is unestablished. In the Kewatta Sutta, DN.11, this is called non-manifestative, Viññāáč‡aáčƒ anidassanaáčƒ.
With Metta

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Nimal you wrote: Yes. Arahant has consciousness. But it is unestablished. In the Kewatta Sutta, DN.11, this is called non-manifestative, Viññāáč‡aáčƒ anidassanaáčƒ.
Yes I know it is terminology borrowed from Upanisads, it misleads many buddhists.
Non established consciousness, is what I call “evaporated consciousness” meaning comes across more easily. It sank in, Martin was surprised.
One cannot talk about the state of the Arahant, as Buddha explains to Vacchagota, or as Sariputta explained to Kottitha. Did you read those suttas?
We discussed this before too, if you followed the thread. In fact partway down the thread karl_lew exclaimed
To kill consciousness, we have to kill the dyad. right?
Be well!

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102

Appreciate if you could provide a Sutta reference for the above. The dyad as far as the consciousness is concerned is between name & form and consciousness. In SN 12.67, this is explained with the simile of the two reeds leaning onto each other.
Falling of the bundle of name and form IMO is eliminating craving for it. But it does not mean that consciousness has evaporated. There are many Suttas which attest to this.
I am really looking forward to your response because I am firmly onto this belief and understanding. If it is wrong I will be very grateful to you for correcting me.
Thanks in adavnce.
With Metta

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