Another take on Satipatthana and Jhana

no necessity to ‘kill’ anything. Consciousness simply arises due to conditions. Change the conditions in the correct way and consciousness no longer arises.

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Wow :flushed: what a big hole

Just keep what belongs to consciousness what belongs to it. Gradually. Naturally leads to Nibbana.

Clearly the Arahant can still see and hear, so there must be some kind of consciousness.
Perhaps we can say that with the cessation of craving, the Arahant has developed a different kind of consciousness, one that is not drawn into sense-objects, and doesn’t get involved in the same way. Consciousness without surface?

The role of jhana would be to provide non-sensory pleasure, while the role of sati would be to provide the detachment of reflexive awareness. Both reducing the tendency for consciousness to be drawn into sense-objects.

Have a look at Ven. Sujato’s blog titled: “Nibbana is not vinnana. Really, it just isn’t.”
Some interesting reflections on vinnana there.

It’s pretty clear that some kind of consciousness continues, since the Arahant still sees and hears. As you say, consciousness without surface would be a contender here. Or just sense-consciousness without the craving for sense-objects.

It depends how you interpret the dyads, which depends on how you interpret DO.
The dyads can be viewed as a purely functional descriptions: describing how consciousness needs a sense-base and sense-object to arise (Loka Sutta) or describing the mutual dependence of consciousness and mind-body (some DO suttas).
These functions would continue for the Arahant, but without the craving.

Dhp 92 and 93 explains this idea thus.

"For those who have no stores, those who comprehend food aright,
for those whose resort is the liberation that is empty or signless,
like the birds in the sky, their track is hard to find.

For him whose pollutants are destroyed, who is not dependent on the foods,
for him whose resort is the liberation that is empty or signless,
like the birds in the sky, his footprint is hard to find."

SN 12.64 explains it thus;

"Suppose there was a bungalow or a hall with a peaked roof, with windows on the northern, southern, or eastern side. When the sun rises and a ray of light enters through a window, where would it land?”

“On the western wall, sir.”

“If there was no western wall, where would it land?”

“On the ground, sir.”

“If there was no ground, where would it land?”

“In water, sir.”

“If there was no water, where would it land?”

“It wouldn’t land, sir.”

“In the same way, if there is no desire, relishing, and craving for solid food, consciousness does not become established there and doesn’t grow. …"

In SN 4.23, we have the story of Venerable Godhika who committed suicide and whose consciousness Mara, the Wicked, was looking for. And the Buddha explains it thus;

“Mendicants, do you see that cloud of black smoke moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between?”

“Yes, sir.”

“That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Godhika’s consciousness, wondering: ‘Where is Godhika’s consciousness established?’ But since his consciousness is not established, Godhika is extinguished.”

MN.91, the Brahmin Bramayau explains it in respect of the Buddha, thus;

“He eats experiencing the taste, but without experiencing greed for the taste.”

All these go to show that a living Arahant has consciousness but it is free of craving for names & forms, hence unestablished. This is also what is called cessation of existence, Bhava Nirodha.

With Metta

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Dear Nimal what is that consciousness you are talking about? it is helpful to have SN 47.42, four buddhist jhanas (Bhante Sujato’s Explanation), and Putramansa suttta SN 12.63. in the background. It makes the discussion stay on topic. How do you understand SN 12.60? Are you familiar with the Grand discourse on the Destruction of Craving?
A peaceful Monday!

Pl define consciousness for me, in order to make sure you and i are on the same page.
Happy Monday!

Dera Upasaka_Dhammasara: I like your sense of humor. What a big hole? Do you mean a hole in understanding? or are you talking of hole to fill the hunger?
In regarding to both, a short poem, perhaps you will appreciate this. When I am in the Dhamma mood, nature has a huge impact on me. Have you noticed that baby birds have an opening larger than their bellies? They remind me of hungry ghosts.
Baby birds
two baby birds nesting; peering into Mugo pine;
with mummy gone.
love sits in the couch of nest, affection
rains…instinctively
mouths wide open, babies’ hunger bigger than life;
Two baby birds! with beaks wide
open, larger than their tiny bellies,
soon they fly away
wild life?
will life, this life, new life, give them what they
are looking for? like baby birds we wander from life to life
searching for love;

With love
baby birds remind me of a hunger for becoming too, which we have fallen victim to.

Dear Martin: I shall reply to you later, so many ideas. I love that statement “Nibbana is not vinnana. Really, it just isn’t.”
Spending time with him, listening to his videos, during the lockdown, made me join SC .
I had read him a few years ago. Things did not quite sink in… but listening to him? The quote you selected of Ven. Sujato makes me think you got it.
With love
I jutst noticed good advice on how to make summarized replies. Bear with me, I am still learning …@name function?

The main thing I took from Ven Sujato’s blog is that vinnana has a range of meaning in the suttas, and is context dependent. Sometimes it’s just “bare” sense-consciousness, sometimes it’s more like sanna (perception), sometimes it’s equivalent to citta (taking on qualities), sometimes it’s connected with panna, and so on.
This means we need to cautious when interpreting suttas which refer to vinnana, the meaning(s) might be more nuanced than we first assume.

I will repeat again what I have already said before. I am talking about consciousness which is free of craving. Although consciousness is variously interpreted the basic sense is that it arises in dependence on name & form. Basically what it means is that as long as there is craving for name & form there is consciousness or mind stationing on it. So when craving is completely eliminated there is still consciousness which is free of all defilements. AN 1.49 will help.

So my original question still remains to be answered. ie; what is evaporated consciousness?.
I am familiar with all the suttas you quoted except that I have not personally experienced jhanas in the way they are described in the Suttas.

Can you provide the reference number.

Waiting for your response.
With Metta

Yeah so many post replies here. So many understanding. So going down to the last reply with your phone. Was for me like going down a big hole. Scrolling down was as if falling down the hole. But at same time scrolling down fast , you can’t read the replies, so it’s falling into emptiness. Wow thanks for replying.

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I agree with the general thrust of your argument (consciousness freed from craving), but note the final paragraph in this article on AN 1.49 by Ven. Sujato.

The distinction between aggregates and clinging aggregates (SN 22.48) is worth mentioning here. You could say that vinnana ceases to cling to nama-rupa.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html

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Martin, I was gonna reply … a long version, all inclusive. For now I will hold off on that, since you brought up SN 22.48. It is a sutta I could never figure out.
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?
"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate.
"Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the feeling aggregate.
"Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the perception aggregate.
"Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: Those are called the fabrications aggregate.
"Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the consciousness aggregate.
"These are called the five aggregates.
But these five aggregates that did not cling in the past, how did they come into existence in the past, without clinging?
Is sutta writing about something non-existent here?
In some suttas Buddha says consciousness is the killer, kill it before it kills you, do not let it arise?
This sutta does not make sense to me.
You wrote “You could say that vinnana ceases to cling to nama-rupa” when that happens can it be called Vinnana? Vinnana means a duality, according to my understanding.
With love

SN22.48 is basically describing the “conversion” of clinging aggregates to non-clinging aggregates for the Arahant. Including consciousness.
The Arahant still sees and hears, so it’s clear that sense-consciousness continues for the Arahant - without the clinging.

You could say that vinnana arises in dependence upon a “duality” (eg eye and form), but that doesn’t mean vinnana itself is a duality - it’s just a description of how sense-consciousness works. You’re assuming a particular interpretation of DO, which not everyone shares.

Self-view isn’t caused by sense-consciousness, it’s caused by regarding sense-consciousness as me and mine, along with the other aggregates. Many suttas say this, it’s how anatta is described.

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Thanks. I do not say that consciousness is Nibbana or anything like that. All I am saying is that elimination of craving is Nibbana and since craving is for name & form, Nibbana has to be the knowledge that there is no more craving for name & form

This knowledge can be called unestablished consciousness, signless or objectless or whatever.
With Metta

Reminder
Please remember that there is a fine line between presenting information for discussion, and exploration of meaning of the texts, and trying to argue or convince others that a particular view is right!

The former is welcome here, but the later is not :pray: :relieved:

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Just sharing some thoughts. For me all the suttas of SN22 has the flavour of Dependant Origination. The following sutta does not directly address the upadanakkhandhas (i think its about the Nirodisation of the upadanakkhandhas). But it’s meaning perhaps can be inferred.

Mendicants, you should give up any desire, greed, relishing, and craving for form; and any attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendencies. Thus that form will be given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.

You should give up any desire, greed, relishing, and craving for
feeling …
perception …
choices …

consciousness; and any attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendencies. Thus that consciousness will be given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.”
SN22.112

I tend to think of upadanakkhandhas as a subset of the khandhas. Upadanakkhandhas are khandhas that are constrained by Dependant Origination. If the khandhas are like water in general, the upadanakkhandhas are a river. Each person a river of khandhas that flows on long as there is an inclination.

I feel kinda late already for this topic. But since there is mention of 5 aggregate. I want to ask, has any wondered that when Buddha said the blood from your past life is more then the ocean of the sea it might mean since everything is actually just the 5 aggregates and the elements so everything in the world same so he was counting the blood of the whole of the world as being yours? (just a quick question )