Another take on Satipatthana and Jhana

Discussion
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Let us outline the steps of 4 buddhist jhanas, dumbing it down for ease, since there are non-jhana practitioners here. The discussion is impossible without this experience or taking that as a given. Let us say it is a prerequisite. The goal of the thread is ‘buddhist transformative enterprise’, transformation of the cognitive apparatus by relying on Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi, seeking end of suffering. Factors of the path and the all inclusive 37 factors, are taken into account most seriously.

Examining Four jhanas:

leaving behind contact with sensory world, vitaka, vicara is dropped by end of 1st jhana

arouses a piti that suffuses, 2nd jhana

a rapturous state, an equanimity spreading. 3rd jhana

an imperturbability, like a bull’s hide fully stretched with a hundred pegs, nothing can pierce thru, 4th jhana

When i say no more consciousness on the thread, i am referring to a state where nothing of the sensory world impacts, creating a forward progression of DO. Void of the sensory, Descent into void??? Void is the Arahant.

He is here in the sensory world as far as we can see, but he has escaped the “all” that traps us. He has a heart beat, his pulse is working.

He has escaped our world of sensory consciousness called “All” in the EBTs, for those who have not experienced moments of this nature, it might sound like a fairy tale.

One such as this, is far removed from the sensory world, gone beyond contact, or feeling or apperception related to sensory world. No Papanca at this point.

Consciousness of the sensory nature has been halted. This does not affect the biochemical processes of life. Sentience is intact, as it is for the Arahant.

One like this is not blind, deaf or mute. One like this may walk thru a sensory world without being impacted by its attraction. or repulsion

Above will have to be taken granted for there to be a useful discussion. I come from a scientific background, so I might use words that might come across as peculiar, do not be perturbed.

4th jhana imitates the Arahant mode.

If you are not acquainted with DN 2 Samnnaphala sutta or MN 53 The disciple in Higher training or MN 122 over the years, or followed a Bodhisattva suttas MN 36, Mahasaccaka this thread might not be ideal.

I did not intend to discuss Consciousness/vinnana here in detail. Vinnana is complicated. it can be phassa, it can be sanna, that are dependently rising, it can be craving, it can be Papanca. In my mind I think of it as a shape shifter arising dependent on conditions. I think of Vinnana as taking on the personality of its occupant. If craving resides in it, then vinnana is the craving.

Vinnana creates a world of Rupa for us, each moment by using other aggregates. Meaning of Nama-Rupa is complicated also. But that is another subject.

It is pointless to say these things are distinct. There are countless manisfestations, one melding into another. All the underlying tendencies are Vinnana too, Arahant is free of these, as is the meditator in 4th jhanic state.

@anon87721581 thanks for sharing the thoughts, i see your point.
thanks also for bringing in
consciousness; and any attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendencies. Thus that consciousness will be given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.”
SN22.112

This is etched in my mind, sutta pitaka is so vast, and i am at a point, where i cannot retrieve a sutta like this, at a moment’s notice. I am not a scholar. Info however is consolidated in my mind. Perhaps i am not the right material for a discussion like this, where everything said needs to be linked to a particular sutta. To give you an example there is an a sutta in Khandasamyutta where Buddha refers to a painter, i cannot recall exact number, perhaps you can tell me.
An excerpt from memory

Just as a dyer or a painter with various dyes can reproduce a woman or man complete in every detail, similarly an ordinary person brings rupa into existence, when they bring feeling, perception, mental activities and consciousness into existence.

But the Arahant does not. If Arahant does not bring rupa into existence can nama survive? If both die, what happens to consciousness/vinnana? Can it breath? will it not die? But Arahant goes on, not with ordinary sensing, but something beyond ordinary sensing.

May you go beyond this world of senses!

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Hopefully not too pedantic here, but:

The discourses describe the first jhāna differently. It is sensual pleasures (kāma) that are left behind, not the sensory world. Vitakka and vicāra are still present.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by vitakka and vicāra, with pīti and sukha born of seclusion. (MN 4 et al)

The sensory world is left behind with the attainment of the sphere of limitless space. This is spelled out in MN 25, for example, which describes perceptions of sensory impact (paṭighasaññānaṃ) ceasing in that attainment. If they had ceased in the first jhāna, that presumably would have been mentioned in its description of the first jhāna.

Just to be clear, pīti was already aroused and suffused in the first jhāna, though it was a pīti arising from seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful states. The second jhāna’s pīti arises from samādhi, on the mind being unified. It’s still suffused through the body, though the pītisukha is of a finer quality.

And by the third jhāna, pīti is gone, replaced by a pleasure (sukha) based on equanimity (see MN 66, which describes the upekkhāsukhaṃ of the third jhāna as the agitation there). This may be what you meant by “rapturous state, equanimity spreading”, but since pīti is often translated as “rapture”, I wasn’t sure if you meant pīti or sukha.

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The following has always helped me sort out this or that consciousness:

MN49:25.1: Consciousness that is invisible, infinite, entirely given up—that’s what is not within the scope of experience based on earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Creator, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord, and the all.

The invisible infinite consciousness exists and is obscured by craving consciousness. We can deduce the invisible infinite consciousness but can’t “see” it. Eventually all conscious attempts to grasp that invisible consciousness are relinquished out of simple futility. As MC Hammer said, “U can’t touch this”. It’s literally true–craving consciousness cannot touch infinite consciousness.

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This is not how I understand it. The Buddha wanted show the depth of Samsara. That is that living beings have been roaming in Samsara without a beginning. During this journey we have shed so much blood due to various reasons such as being killed that, if all the blood is collected it is greater than the waters of the four oceans put together.
With Metta

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Thanks for the reply. :pray:t4:

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So infinite, indivisible consciousness replaces ordinary sense-consciousness? Its a nice idea, though I have to observe that it sounds very much like the “pure consciousness” of Advaita Vedanta.

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Actually, it is always there for all of us. Craving consciousness is the bug splat on the infinite consciousness windshield. Focusing on the bug splat, we crash the car into suffering. Giving up the bug splat, there is just the road ahead. The defilement is just the stickiness that leads to “THAT bug hit MY car. EWWW!” Dialing back the stickiness, relinquishing the “me-ness”, simply allows an abiding in infinite consciousness.

The experience of infinite consciousness touches us all. Meditation is the practice that gives us the experiential faith in its existence. Just sitting, walking, standing or lying down, breath happens. And breath happens if we make it happen or just watch it happen or don’t watch it happen.

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What’s the Pali for “infinite consciousness”?

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Hmm. I’ll hazard a guess that it is Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ but you’ve asked beyond my experience.

MN49:25.1: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, taṃ pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṃ, āpassa āpattena ananubhūtaṃ, tejassa tejattena ananubhūtaṃ, vāyassa vāyattena ananubhūtaṃ, bhūtānaṃ bhūtattena ananubhūtaṃ, devānaṃ devattena ananubhūtaṃ, pajāpatissa pajāpatittena ananubhūtaṃ, brahmānaṃ brahmattena ananubhūtaṃ, ābhassarānaṃ ābhassarattena ananubhūtaṃ, subhakiṇhānaṃ subhakiṇhattena ananubhūtaṃ, vehapphalānaṃ vehapphalattena ananubhūtaṃ, abhibhussa abhibhuttena ananubhūtaṃ, sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṃ.
MN49:25.1: Consciousness that is invisible, infinite, entirely given up—that’s what is not within the scope of experience based on earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Creator, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord, and the all.

I also haven’t looked into the distinction between the above usage of infinite consciousness and the “dimension of infinite consciousness”. I suspect the latter has a lingering sense of “I am”, but again, that is a hypothesis driven by the single word, “invisible”. If I “see/perceive” the dimension of infinite consciousness, then “I am” with the slightest taint of bug splat.

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Yes, it could be “Consciousness without surface”.
I do have the sense of an awareness “beneath” ordinary sense-consciousness, I’m not sure though if it’s a Buddhist thing.

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Buddhist things skillfully erode suffering.

MN28:2.2: In the same way, all skillful qualities can be included in the four noble truths.

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Is it a nice idea though? To me it seems really sad if it’s the case that there’s no possibility to escape from consciousness. I.e never getting to an end of things even after immeasurable eons of eons of eons… always experiencing, for eternity, on and on…

Isn’t to be made permanent through some untouchable consciousness also in a sense being imprisoned for eternity and therefore the ultimate loss of freedom?

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To me the idea of infinite consciousness is more appealing than oblivion. Though my best times are sailing and kayaking, just wind and waves, when existential speculations like this seems irrelevant.
In the waves, just the waves… :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Did you look at Ven Sujato’s blog I referenced earlier in the thread: “Nibbana is not vinnana…”? He says that that the vi prefix in “vinnana” doesn’t only indicate separative consciousness, as is widely assumed, but can also mean expansion or spreading out.
So vinnana isn’t limited to sense-consciousness, it has a wider meaning.
Thinking of SN 22.48, you could say that clinging consciousness ceases, leaving only non-clinging consciousness - or more simply that clinging ceases.
So with the removal of clinging, consciousness no longer grasps at sense-objects, or at name+form.
And returning to the OP, you could then say that the purpose of jhana and satipatthana is to reduce clinging and craving.

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Having the current feedback, whoever did that I thank you, a computer program?
Taking that advice, I will consolidate the discussion in a more useful way, not answer each question, but give one answer that is sort of all inclusive at a given point. While I try, bear with me, I am a new to SC, and have not figured out how to be efficient. I wish there was a manual called "How to negotiate SC for idiots, once they post?"
O well!
My dear @Martin from your comments, I notice that you get frustrated with the discussion at times. ‘Frustration is a good thing’ one of my Profs told me once. I was frustrated over my PhD dissertation, but he adviced, one learns to work through frustration, and that is progress.
Take one sip at a time, of the inflowing info, if it is contrary to what you have come to believe. Walk away from the discussion and think about it, when it frustrates. Folks have recalcitrant views, they need to jam through those. This is not easy. One cannot walk to Nibbana holding views.
This is a difficult discussion, esp ‘Consciousness’ for we have been bombarded by many views of it. Western philosophers think one way, neurobiology thinks another way, Buddha presented Vinnana as a dependently risen condition that sets Paticca samuppada rolling. Our soteriological interest should be only here. There are many suttas that say purpose of meditation is not just to watch “arising and fading”. Samudaya involves an examination of how things originate and how things cease. Almost like a science experiment, we must examine this in our minds. SN 47.42 Samudaya is one of those that I selected for the the main discussion. SN 22.56 writes "For one who directly knows origination of consciousness, directly knows the Path to the cessation, will practice for disenchantment, dispassion, What does cease mean? When I cease, I die…right?
In SN 22.131 and SN 22.132, two arahants have a discussion, this was meant to teach about “Clear knowing” and “ignorance”.
These suttas come under “Samudaya” emphasizing that the wise meditator’s task is to bring Consciousness to a cessation.
Cease the Vinnana of DO, kill that consciousness. Don’t confuse this with Upanisad Vinnana. They want consciousness to expand and grow. Buddha rejected this notion. Buddha wanted to terminate it.
Thank you, just now I read Ven Sujato’s take on Pabassara sutta from Anguttara. “The Radiant Mind” I had wondered about that sutta always, it is a peculiar short sutta.
I think he explains it away beautifully, in his typical brilliant manner. I definitely do not think he is supporting the idea of persistent radiant mind. Those writings he selected, sound more like how an abhidhammika was attempting to try a meditative state.
You appear to think Arahant has non-clinging aggregate based on one sutta. Now what does that mean? if they do not cling, do these aggregates come into existence? If so why bother?
The way I see it, at this point you are firmly standing on the idea of Upanisad vinnana, maybe I am wrong. For some it helps to think this way, but if that vinnana persists, does it not have figments of imagination of a self? It is hard for us to get rid of this idea, of a self…
Buddha did not quite say we have a self, or we don’t have a self.
Vaccagotta, which means he did not want us to get hung up on either idea. That is the take away lesson, but we must approach it gently.
But sailing! if you enjoy that, pl pursue. You like it because that makes you forget yourself. You escape yourself. Jhana or Samadhi accomplishes something similar, yet in a non-sensual way. Joy is an important factor in Jhana.

@Christopher, you presented MN 25 Nevada sutta and MN 66 in support of your ideas. You support your idea using formless meditations.
For my comment I used the info in DN 2 MN 53 MN 122 MN 36. Pl check those and see whether my comment is contrary to ideas presented there? These suttas present 4 buddhist jhanas, as path to awakening. Buddha followed these, I am able to relate to those.
As for formless meditation, pl tell me how you understand those? lacking body? is that how you see that meditation. Can one meditate without a body? Are these not Uapanisad meditations practiced by Buddha’s teachers? he rejected, those but the ideas have crept into EBTs.
Do the formless serve a useful function? In Sandha sutta Buddha specifically says only the unbroken colt practices like these
The wise meditator An excerpt from Sandha sutta. The wise meditator, not the stupid one.
“He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, heat, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed”
What does this mean? it basically says wise one does not rely on a dependently risen consciousness.
Examples of those are
*infinite space, infinite consciousness *
the sphere of nothingness.
sphere of neither perception nor non-perception.
also what is seen, heard, heard, cognized.
How do you understand this? Is it not a rejection of formless meditations?
@Christopher

I explained the jhanas using 4 sentences. Obviously I left the details out. If you want a detailed version pl ask. I used rapture, an English word, you use a Pali word sukha. Do these not mean the same thing? Samadhi begins at second jhana, this I am aware.
You say it is sensual pleasure (Kama) that is left behind, in first jhana, and not the “Sensory world” Is not Kama and sensory world the same thing?
I said vitaka, vicara is dropped in first jhana, I modified my answer to say by end of first jhana…does this suit your idea of jhana better?
Will talk again once you reply.
It is hard to have a discussion on Jhana by mixing up info from suttas that deal with only Buddhist jhanas and info from Suttas that rank arupas atop the buddhist jhanas.
Not a good mix.
The latter ranking has always perplexed me. So I stick to those with 4 buddhist jhanas only. Pl read the suttas I presented along with my comment. Then my comment will make more sense.
@karl_lew I enjoy your contributions. Seems you too go along with the idea of “infinite consciousness”. It sounds to me like falling back on Upanishadic ideas.
We have different takes on things. To me, Arahant has given up everything, including vinnana of the DO. Arahant cannot be reckoned by limited minds. Suttas support this notion.
You wrote Meditation is the practice that gives us the experiential faith in its existence.
But did not Buddha write in Kaccayanagotta “neither being nor non-being” in other words “neither existence nor non-existence”?
Buddhist things skillfully erode suffering. I like that.
@Erika_ODonnell your comment
To me it seems really sad if it’s the case that there’s no possibility to escape from consciousness. I.e never getting to an end of things even after immeasurable eons of eons of eons… always experiencing, for eternity, on and on…
Isn’t to be made permanent through some untouchable consciousness also in a sense being imprisoned for eternity and therefore the ultimate loss of freedom? is refreshing.
Thank You.
PS if I missed anything, I shall take it up later, I am starving.
edited …
@Martin I see your new comment. Will we reach a resolution if I say Arahant’s consciousness is nibbanized? Is this more acceptable?
Consciousness comes to be, due to being fed by craving and clinging. When the food or nutriment ceases, then consciousness also ceases to be.
@Martin

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I think it’s clear from the suttas that the aggregates are still present for the Arahant, and that includes consciousness - otherwise the Arahant would be unconscious!
I’m not proposing an Upanishadic consciousness. That would be an independent phenomena, whereas in the suttas consciousness is dependently arising.
My main point is that it is craving and clinging which cease, rather than consciousness.

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My brain is too small for that. Instead I understand that consciousness exists to make choices that don’t matter.

Kaccānagotta SN12.15:3.7: When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. …

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It’s not clear to me what you’re referring to here. It seems like you might think I’m making an argument about the necessity of the formless attainments for awakening? If so, I wasn’t. My comment was only in regard to your descriptions of the four jhānas. Personally, I think that the early discourses indicate that the four jhānas are a sufficient level of samādhi for awakening (and perhaps indicate that it can be done without them).

Regarding the body, I understand them to be meditative experiences in which the sense of the physical body drops away. The body is still there, of course, but the physical world, including the body, has dropped away in the meditator’s experience.

The third and fourth formless attainments are said to have been practiced by the bodhisatta’s teachers. It seems to me that when he learned them, he likely understood them through the lens of the metaphysical theories those teachers espoused. In MN 26, he rejected his teachers’ doctrines and practices as not having led him to his goal of nibbāna, but it doesn’t indicate that he rejected those meditative states altogether.

I believe they do. They gradually calm the constructing activity of the mind more and more, bringing it closer to the complete stillness of the meditative experience of nibbāna.

As I understand it, that sutta indicates in the beginning that the first meditator described is meditating with a mind obsessed with the hindrances, so they could not be in any kind of absorption based on any of those 11 things they’re dependent on. The second meditator described is the arahant in the meditative experience of nibbāna.

I’m familiar with the arguments against the formless attainments being original, and while they’re interesting, I haven’t personally found them convincing.

The Buddha also did it in four sentences too: :wink:

“Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

“With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, I entered upon and abided in the second jhāna, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration.

“With the fading away as well of rapture, I abided in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, I entered upon and abided in the third jhāna, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.’

“With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity."

(I hope you’ll take :arrow_up: in the playful spirit in which it was intended)

As I said, I only mentioned it because English translators frequently use “rapture” to translate “pīti”, so I wanted to clarify that you were translating “sukha”. Thanks for clearing it up.

Not to me. Sensual pleasures are those things that provoke greed and lust. The sensory world denotes all that can be sensed through the sense doors.

I’m not quite sure what you mean, my friend. It seems like you’re saying that there’s a deeper stage of first jhāna, just before entering second jhāna, where vitakka-vicāra drops away. To me, vitakka-vicāra drop away when the mind unifies in samādhi, which begins the second jhāna. But this seems to be more of an academic distinction, not a practical one. :nerd_face:

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@Bird-of-Paradise, it seems like you replied to several of us by editing your last post several times rather than hitting “Reply” at the end of each of our posts. So now your last post is a bit garbled, and I think it may be confusing for future readers. I know there’s a learning curve to using this forum! Maybe one of the @moderators can help you set things in order?

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@Christopher wrote it seems like you replied to several of us by editing your last post several times rather than hitting “Reply” at the end of each of our posts. So now your last post is a bit garbled, and I think it may be confusing for future readers.
True one morning as I was replying individually, I got a notification that wrote “I should consolidate my replies” hence this result. I will go back to replying individually unless a moderator asks me otherwise or instructs me how best to handle it
Let me see if I can fix it.
Here is the last reply meant only for you.
@Cristopher wrote
The Buddha also did it in four sentences too: True those are longer sentences.
As for sensory, I think of sensory (Kama) as trapped by one’s senses soteriologically. Arahant has gone beyond the sense bases, therefore is not trapped by the sensory world…

vitaka vicara …at the end of first jhana or the beginning of 2nd?
does it make a difference?
The Four jhanas? There are suttas where one accomplishes all that is required within just first jhana, The point of Jhana is not the technicalities… that one sits and accomplishes things in a specific order, but to develop the practice so that one can descend into the void at a moment’s notice…
Or develop a lifesyle that enables such, at short notice. MN 53 The Disciple in Higher training …
Excerpt MN 53, some salient points from Sekha sutta. Regarding the practice

SuttaCentral

SuttaCentral

Early Buddhist texts from the Tipitaka (Tripitaka). Suttas (sutras) with the Buddha’s teachings on mindfulness, insight, wisdom, and meditation.

A synopsis : *In Nigrodha’s Park at Kapilavasthu, for much of the night Buddha had roused and gladdened the Sakyans, his back begins to hurt, he says to Ven. Ananda “Ananda speak to the Sakyans” While he lay down in Lion’s pose on a patchwork quilt, Ananda speaks of the seven good * qualities of the Disciple in Higher Training,
He is one who obtains at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas, that constitute the higher mind and provide a pleasant abiding.One who lives a life conducive to jhana, that one obtains at will.

I want to emphasize Jhana is a natural activity, when one lives accordingly. Often the literature makes jhana seem like impossible to obtain, but perhaps for those that impossibility is in living the ethical life and not states of jhana . In jhana, Papanca ceases.
How should one live? in order to obtain jhana?

  1. He places his faith in the Tathagata’s enlightenment thus: The blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons, to be tamed, teacher of Gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.
    2.He has shame, is ashamed of bad conduct.
    3.He has fear of wrongdoing.
    4.learning much, remembers what he has learned, reinforcing these, mentally scrutinizises the teachings, investigates them, and comprehends them theoretically.
    5.He is energetic, he is steadfast, firm in striving. They live with energy roused up for giving up unskillful qualities and embracing skillful qualities, not slacking off when it comes to developing skillful qualities.
    6 He has mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill (Samma Sati?)
    7 He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.

"Again, how does the disciple of the noble ones obtain at will — without trouble or difficulty — the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now? (Four jhanas are described in the sutta, step by step) This is how the disciple of the noble ones obtains at will — without trouble or difficulty — the

four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now.

PS factors 2 and 3 shame and dread elsewhere is called Hiri Otappa, Guardians of the world
For those whom moral shame and moral fear are at all times unknown—
they, turning away from the roots of light, are those who go to birth and death.
Sense faculties should be incessantly guarded…in Buddha’s dispensation.
@Christopher

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