Another take on Satipatthana and Jhana

Discussion
164

Is remembering all these in your mind necessary? It seems actually necessary but once you know it’s better to focus on learning what hindrance you personally have. And let with time when your in higher training your supposed to let all happen naturally until your experience has less hindrances. And you mastered staying long sitting. It probably refine your mind. Until something like this happens.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.7/en/sujato

Like for example thinking like gradually until becomes part of you. Until it happens naturally.

But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn28.1/en/sujato

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It does not mean the 16 practices in the SN suttas are the ‘steps’ theory in connection with the 4 Jhanas for ‘insight’.

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Well, do explain your understanding?

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If you ask to explain my understanding of ‘insight’, as indicated previously, if according to SN/SA suttas, it is mainly about passati, janati and right view (See pp. 34, 53, 60-1, 91, 192-5, in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).

The practice of ‘insight’ does not have to be done, or practiced after emerging from the 4th Jhana in the sati practices.

The practice of ‘insight’ centres mainly on practice and experience for individuals in a practical sense, rather than on idealistic and systematic theory, according to the above-mentioned SN/SA suttas.

So, the 16 practices in the SN suttas are not the ‘steps’ theory in connection with the 4 Jhanas for ‘insight’.

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So how does one go about practicing the 3rd tetrad exactly? What role does Jhana play in your view of things, and how is it developed?

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One does not really need to speculate: “how does one go about practicing the 3rd tetrad exactly?” or “What role does Jhana play in view of things, and how is it developed?”, according to the mentioned SN/SA suttas.

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What does that mean? I assume there is a method for practicing the 3rd tetrad and a role for Jhana in your view of things?

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It means one does not really need to speculate: there is a method for practicing the 3rd tetrad and a role for Jhana. The term ‘Jhana’ is in fact not found in the mentioned SN 54.1 Anapanasati and SN 47.2 Satipatthana.

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Given that anapanasati can lead to Arahantship it must be connected to Jhana in some way. What is that connection, from an EBT position?

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There are two kinds of Arahant according to EBTs: panna-vimutta and ubhatobhaga-vimutta. See p. 201, note 210 in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism.

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Which would still involve Jhana. There is no “bare insight” road to Arahantship, which is why Right Concentration is needed (Jhana).

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Which sutta states it would involve Jhana?

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Everyone that discusses the noble eightfold path. If Jhana isn’t required then it wouldn’t be in there. Seeing as how the NEFP is the only way to Nibbana, Jhana is therefore required. Also MN 70 and it’s parallel define an Arahant liberated by wisdom and an Arahant liberated both ways. Both of them require Jhana.

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How the texts, MN 70 and MA, state which level of Jhana is needed for the wisdom liberated Arahant?

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I have only a small window of time to be here on this Sunday morning, but I love this back and forth between you @Ceisiwr
and @thomaslaw since roughly June 13, 8.45 pm.
This just goes to show that each one of us has some insight, inclining us towards Nibbana, but these insights are also plagued with wrinkles.
Perhaps it is owing to words like Jhana (differing opinions) or Bare cognition “Vinnana-Matta” found in Bahia sutta, and our individual take on these words.
Madhupindika MN 18 puts these matters to rest. Stop the mental proliferation “Papanca” then one finds Nibbana is always there, freedom from Papanca.
So I feel when @Ceisiwr says without jhana… there is no deliverance. This is correct, right? 10- fold path insists on Samma Samadhi. What is Samma samadhi? 4 buddhist jhanas.
Perhaps it helps us if we think of Jhana as Samadhi. Samadhi is ubiquitous in BuddhaDharma, right?
Think of 37 enlightenment factors, think of Iddhipada. Some suttas vaccilate on Jhana i.e… Susima is an indication Jhana necessary? It appears to say at least first jhana is essential.
MN 70 is tricky. But taking the entire doctrine 10 fold path, there is no argument here. Is it? Without 4 buddhist jhana there is no deliverance.
It is true EBT’s appear to support two types of Arahants, but it seems to me like even the one liberated by wisdom needed the support of Samadhi. If you read suttas carefully, general consensus is that Wisdom and samadhi are two wings of the same bird.
@Ceisiwr regarding the Method I think the true method is Methodless this will dawn on you as you keep on investigating the way you do.
@thomaslaw what you say is true “Stop speculating” stop papanca, we cannot possibly tell the other what that method is.
@Ceisiwr As for the subject of MN 118, it is also another way of entering 4 Satipatthanas. MN 118 also implies, as one fulfills Four Satipathanas, requirements for Jhana or samadhi too are indirectly fulfilled. i.e. Samma sati and same samadhi are fulfilled.
I would not get bogged down by the commentary on it. Go over the sutta again and again if sutta appeals to you, return to it only during moments of clarity. Our minds are often preoccupied with views.
Leave all views behind, and approach Anapanasati sutta. Do not overthink breathing. as words here may imply, pausing at long and short. The way the sutta is worded may lead to a misconception. Use the Turner simile to understand breath.
To enter this practice one has to sink into breath as a totality. Not thinking, one descends into the Void, where Arahants
tend to rest, where there is no speculation, no thought proliferation … absence of Papanca
@thomaslaw thanks for being here. This kind of back and forth helps all of us.
With love

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From Ven. Analaylo:

According to the Majjhima-nikāya version, the distinguishing mark between the two types of arahant in this listing, both of which no longer need to work with diligence, is that the one who is “liberated-both-ways” (ubhatobhāgavimutta) has personal experience of the immaterial liberations,202 while the one who is “liberated-by-wisdom” (paññāvimutta) has no such personal experience of the immaterial liberations.203 The Madhyama-āgama version differs in as much as, instead of personal experience of the immaterial liberations, it takes personal experience of the eight liberations to be marking the difference between these two types of arahant.204 A discourse in the Sa,yukta-āgama, which enumerates and defines the same seven noble disciples, also speaks of personal experience of the eight liberations when defining the arahant who is “liberated-both-ways”. 205 The same presentation recurs in an examination of these seven noble disciples in the Puggalapaññatti, which similarly brings in the eight liberations when describing the arahant who is liberated-both-ways.206 That to merit being called “liberated-both-ways” requires personal experience of the eight liberations is also indicated in the Mahānidāna-sutta and its Chinese parallels, which define this particular type of arahant in terms of his or her ability to enter these eight liberations at will.207 Thus a definition of an arahant liberated-both-ways by way of his or her personal experience of the immaterial liberations seems to be a mode of presentation specific to the Kīaāgiri-sutta.

According to the Sagīti-sutta and its Chinese parallel, the eight liberations cover among others the four immaterial attainments.208 Hence the passages listed so far can be seen to agree that an arahant who does not have personal experience of the four immaterial attainments cannot be considered “liberated-both-ways”, but would ‘only’ be an arahant reckoned to be “liberated-by-wisdom”.

The difference relates to the immaterial jhanas. One “liberated by wisdom” still has the rupa jhanas.

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regarding the Method I think the true method is Methodless this will dawn on you as you keep on investigating the way you do

After years of practice I disagree.

To enter this practice one has to sink into breath as a totality. Not thinking, one descends into the Void , where Arahants
tend to rest, where there is no speculation, no thought proliferation … absence of Papanca

I’m not sure what this means? The way I practice, which is the Visud. method, you are aware of the breath at the tip of the nose but only as a concept. You do not focus on its characteristics. You do this until the nimitta arises, which with practice then leads into Jhana.

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@Bird-of-Paradise. @Martin, @karl_lew …
Thank you for this insightful discussion, which I have been following for the last 1 week… there was indeed much said that was deep, worthy of contemplation.

Regarding the kind of vinnana aggregate possessed by the Arahant and the question of “Is the Vinnana aggregate freed or does it disappear” … I have a semi-formed notion that I would like to submit for your scrutiny. (Please do forgive me for butting in- I wouldn’t want to be like Hatthisariputta!)

Why are we approaching the question only from the angle of Vinnana aggregate (part of Nama/dyad)? Why not approach it from the other end of Rupa aggregate (part of Rupa/dyad)?

Or to rephrase the question…
What is the rupa (if any) of the Realized one / Arahant while he is still alive?

SN44.1
"Is there any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the grains of sand in the Ganges, that is, how many grains of sand there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of grains of sand?”
…
“In the same way, great king, any form by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of form.

SN44.2
“So, Anurādha, you should truly see any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’
What do you think, Anurādha? Do you regard the Realized One as form?”
“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you regard the Realized One as in form?”
“Or do you regard the Realized One as distinct from form?”
“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you regard the Realized One as possessing form?
“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you regard the Realized One as one who is without form?
“No, sir.”
“In that case, Anurādha, since you don’t acknowledge the Realized One as a genuine fact in the present life, is it appropriate to declare…

SN44.4
“Reverend, not truly knowing and seeing form, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation, one thinks…

Therefore, the Realized one is not his body. There is obviously a body there …alive, eating, walking, talking, responding… there is contact, feeling, perception, volition and conciousness of that body process still operative, arising and passing away continuously, based on contact. But from the perspective of ‘behind the eyes’ of the Realized One, these are just impersonal constantly changing processes to which there is neither attraction nor rejection, since they are known for what they are… just Dukkha arising and passing away, with absolutely no sense of Self Identification, ceasing finally at Parinibbana.

AN10.7
"One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

So, the correct answer to the question “what kind of Rupa/ Vinnana aggregate is possessed by the Arahant ?” would be - The Arahant does not possess any aggregate, since ‘he’ exists outside the framework of the aggregates. However, while the Arahant’s body processes are still active, the aggregates associated with that body process can be viewed, if required, dispassionately and without any form of Self Identification, as constantly arising and passing away in accordance with Dhamma viz. Iddapaccaya. On the final ending of the body process, all the aggregates including Vinnana cease. ‘The Arahant’, being outside the framework of the aggregates to begin with, is now finally released…but how to describe that (un) condition?
:thinking:

Wild guess…
The mainframe on which the program of Samsara runs?
:laughing:

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182

Thanks for the information.

It seems the Analayo’s textual argument/analysis does not clearly and precisely present this conclusion: “One “liberated by wisdom” still has the rupa jhanas” .

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AN7.56:7.5: But when their body breaks up gods and humans will see them no more.’

And that verse has always brought me peace, hope and happiness.

:pray:

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