I think a computer is a good analogy. The hardware is the same (body and sense organs), but there is a new operating system running (mind, V. 2).
3 Likes
Given that the difference between the arahants relates to the immaterial Jhanas, that no sutta explicity discusses an arahant coming to nibbana without jhana and given that the definitions given of the Noble Eight Fold Path overwhelmingly state that Jhana is a requirement I think we are on safe grounds to say that an arahant liberated by wisdom has at least the 1st Jhana.
@faujidoc1 Thanks for the great selection of suttas.
You asked What is the rupa (if any) of the Realized one / Arahant while he is still alive?
Rupa is a fluid aggregate, like the other aggregates, Arahant has gone beyond all aggregates. In DO rupa is continuously born and dies as new cravings takes shape, and vanishes.
The body of the Arahant is not important for the discussion, sure it bears the sense bases. He has gone beyond the sense bases. Body is just a residue, to be discarded upon death. It maintains sentience until it dies. Arahantâs status is not to be speculated upon, as Buddha said, he is removed from the tree of becoming.
You wrote towards the end
âthe Arahant exists outside the framework of aggregatesâ it is soteriologically incorrect. Arahant as a person is no more, He is nibbanized, even though we can see him and that body has sentience. He has escaped the cycle of suffering. When asked about this, Buddha and his senior disciples refused to comment on it. Thus whatever we say will only amount to Papanca. Perhaps many had trouble with this, Arahant being replaced by an easy to visualize Bodhisattva is one outcome.
you asked
How to describe that (un)condition?
Arahant has escaped the conditioned cycle, therefore we can say unconditioned, or not dependent on the things that create suffering.
PS Issue of Nama Rupa has been discussed on SC before.
Here is helpful brief excerpt:
But the basic problem is that the Abhidhamma treats the nÄma as âmindâ, which it never means in the suttas, and then rĆ«pa becomes âbodyâ, which it sometimes means in the suttas, but not here. ( RĆ«pa is broader than âbodyâ, as it includes the objects of the five sense, and even the objects of the sixth sense that have material properties such as color and position ). NOTE:
This is correct, but to be fair, the Visuddhimagga specifically states that in the context of dependent origination, nÄma excludes vinnana âa distinction not often noted.**
Whether we speak of sati or samadhi, they both lead towards the pacification of the body. Pacification of body? it means the pacification of sense organs, which leads to pacified cognition. This in turn halts and reverses, the origination of suffering. MN 38.
Through the lens of simplified cognition one gets a glimpse of Nibbana? cessation of papanca.
A note about breath? one must not get carried away by Buddhaghosa or Analayo. Analayoâs is a case of academic interpretation based on a version of Satipatthana that is questionable.
Budhaghosa helps sometimes, but also over analyses. Some drown in the latter. No one can replace Buddha, let us return to the simplicity of Buddha dhamma. How to understand breath? Not with the help of Analayo, neither with Buddhaghosa. In the transmission we find this obscure simile, Simile of the turner in MN 10 DN 22.
Breath is equated with the action of a Turner, an Indian term for pulling of a rope, short pull and then a long pull, repeat. The rope is connected to an axle. That pulling is linked to a series of activity executed by the turning of the axle. Imagine the human condition, heart pumps, CNS fires, sense organs make contact, with sensory domain. If we pacify breath, these functions will be sequentially pacified. Pacification of the aggregates is the goal.
Breath is the rope we pull, we are the craftsmen.
Excerpt:
Just as a skilled turner, making a long pull, knows that he is making a long pull, or in making a short pull, knows thus, so too the practitioner, in making a long breath knows that he he is making a long breath, and so he trains himself, thinking i will breath out calming the whole body,
I breathe in pacifying the whole body. A pacified bodily samadhi via breath. Jhana speaks of whole bodily absorption.
Rhythm of pulling of the rope, of breath that turns the axle.
Breath coaxing onwards, the journey is one of mindfulness and samadhi.
(I breath in experiencing the simple cognition of experience leading to jhanic activity⊠)
sankhara??? volition behind bodily activity is calmed, âi calm bodily volitionâ ie volition towards contact with sense organs.
An absorption of whole body, is implied in what we call buddhist jhanas, body is always included. This is not Arupa jhana, where sense organs are blocked. Buddha mocked these practices, the practice of Brahmin Parasariya, in Indriyabhavana sutta. MN152,
A bhikkhu is a craftsman of the spirit, pursuing a discipline of bare cognition, Jhana refers to embodied experience, calming of bodily volition, an attention that otherwise may be directed to contact with sensory world.
A withdrawal from the sensory world results. Jhana describes the lifestyle of the practitioner. Goal of first jhana is turning away from the sensory world. Goal of first satipatthana is similar. A bhikkhu is a craftsman, crafting breath.
Function of fist jhana and first satipatthana are similar.
@suaimhneas @Martin @karl_lew @Ceisiwr
The direction of mental attention in the practice of satipatthana is ârestraining covetousness and distress in the worldâ (vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m) (p. 216 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism). This mental direction of awareness or mindfulness at the present moment is about samaadhi (p. 218). So, to say that at least the 1st Jhana (p. 123) for an arahant liberated by wisdom is to follow closely the sutta SN 47.2 on satipatthana.
Iâm glad you agree. It then follows that ÄnÄpÄnassati can develop at least the first Jhana.
Thanks for pointing this out, the breath accomplishes the same thing, breath is an example of a kasina, sinking into the totality of body via breath. âI will breathe in, conscious of the whole body-taken to mean the whole body of breathâ meaning âI will breathe in calming the whole body processâ What you wrote "The direction of mental attention in the practice of satipatthana is ârestraining covetousness and distress in the worldâ This would happen in breath meditation too as executed in the Turner simile, sinking into a totality. There is no room for any other thought in the meditator, be it greed or grief.
Samadhi emerges spontaneously in one who lives a life conducive to jhana or samadhi. It is rather strange when there is a discussion where samadhi is implied to be an exotic instrument, and Arupas are mentioned in these discussions. To me, Arupa is an alien thing to buddhist doctrine. Sutta pitaka contains teachings other than of Buddha.
How can that spontaneity of Samadhi be present in Arupa?Arupa is a constructed state of mind. These methods were prevalent in India before the birth of Buddha. Suttas such as MN 43, MN 44 are late constructions.
Regarding Kasina as a totality, evidence is found in EBTâs
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/10/an10-025.html
Excerpt:
one contemplates the air kasiáča, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating;
I like the way you lead the conversation, thank you.
With love
What is kasina in connection with the sati practice here?
@thomaslaw Sati practice is a sinking into totality, as indicated in the Kasina sutta, this was the idea in primitive buddhism if I may use that word, not as Buddhaghosa comments. When using Buddhaghosa, âbuyer bewareâ sometimes it leads you into a jungle of metal proliferation, and endless disputes. I would say ânimittaâ is such a word.
Anapanasati is using breath as the vehicle to enter samadhi. Samadhi is all encompassing. Leaving behind vitaka, vicara imply the same process, different means or devices used for calming, or clear up the junk, we are habitually subjected to.
In MN 121 "Culasunnata"earth is used, relying on my memory(earth without ridges and valleys) to lead into imperturbability, thereafter descending into the void. Earth here, serves the function of kasina.
Happy Tuesday!
PS Sati and samadhi cannot really be put into different compartments. We must not make rigid the concepts that blend into each other.
What are you talking about?
@thomaslaw perhaps I do not make sense to you. I do not know just how to get these thoughts across, in a brief comment, in a chat group.
Let me ask âdo you practice the four Buddhist samadhis/jhanasâ as described in the canon, using the four similes or do you practice 4 satipatthanas as described in SN 42.42 âSamudaya Suttaâ. The thread is about that, or topics closely related to that.
Thank you for pointing that out - I have corrected it as follows:-
Remaining all points, I fully agree. Especially the part of calming/pacifying the breath and thereafter the activity of the aggregates. That is how it makes sense to me too!
Love the way you have put it!! 
This I did not know. Is it correct? But why? Is it because for the purpose of DO, it is vinnana and rupa are co-generating each other in a sort of dependent loop, based on sankhara ? 
Sort of like âI think, therefore I am⊠therefore I think âIâ amâŠâ ??
Or are speaking on the lines of a Pure Conciousness (without any Self identification) as a building block , something on the lines of an Element? It is treated that way in some suttas.
SN18.9
âSeeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with the earth element, water element, fire element, air element, space element, and consciousness element âŠâ
This I did not know. Is it correct? But why? Is it because for the purpose of DO, it is vinnana and rupa are co-generating each other in a sort of dependent loop, based on sankhara ?
Sort of like âI think, therefore I am⊠therefore I think âIâ amâŠâ ??
Or are speaking on the lines of a Pure Conciousness (without any Self identification) as a building block , something on the lines of an Element? It is treated that way in some suttas.
Because the vast majority of pali suttas define nama without consciousness. They put consciousness into a reciprocal relationship with namarupa. Only a tiny number of pali suttas define it with consciousness. All Saravastivadin agamas define it with consciousness. I believe the definition of nama as being inclusive of consciousness in the Saravastivadin agamas is due to their Abhidharmic systematisation.
2 Likes
Would you mind naming them?
Thanks
With Metta
Looks like I got it the wrong way around!
Do you practice that, using the four similes, and also following SN42.42? How do your Sati practice link to the kasina idea?
It seems incorrect. The Kasina sutta does not indicate âSati practice is a sinking into totalityâ.
Also, no connection between kasina and sati practices is indicated in SN 42.42.
PLease note this is not a Practice forum, and personal practice discussion are discouraged via public posting. We acknowledge that it can be very beneficial to discuss practice, and we encourage people to do so via the Personal Message facility. Such âprivateâ study groups have been set up in the past. You can invite multiple people to participate
The Forum isnât a âchat groupâ in the normal sense. This is a forum to discuss the EBTâs, and as such is more formal and structured. There are many other forums for general chat, and we donât wish to duplicate that function here, but rather to provide a repository for questions and answers about EBTâs
I hope this clarifies matters and look forward to your co-operation
3 Likes
As I said previously, SN 47.42 (note: SN 42.42 correct to SN 47.42 âSamudayaâ),
is about the arising and cessation of the four stations/establishments of mindfulness, and seems to have close connection with the concept of the four nutriments (ahara), which are linked in some significant way with the teaching of âarising by causal conditionâ. The four nutriments are:
Material nutriment (kabalimkara-ahara), contact nutriment (phassa-ahara), mental volition nutriment (manosancetana-ahara), and consciousness nutriment (vinnana-ahara). See SN 12.11-2, 63-64 (cf. pp. 202-204, in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism ).
Thanks Dear @Viveka for the reminder. I shall use a lot more caution in my posts in the future, take more time, in organising a response to a query before posting, and not respond, if responding involves my own take. I shall look into other ways of posting. Have not had time to explore SC entirely. Everything takes longer than I anticipated.
Have a beautiful day/night
with love
PS I just checked, and got the impression that âWatercoolerâ is more appropriate for a discussion of what I mean by âchatâ. Am I right?
with love again
3 Likes
Yes 
Though even there we ask that there is some relevence to Dhamma - not just chat about âanythingâ.
The primary purpose of the Forum is to support Sutta Central to provide access to the EBTâs free of charge and in as many languages as possible to the public. The forum was initially set up as a place for all the sutta scholars, translators and IT people to discuss the issues involved with this work. The Watercooler was added, to be able to add in interesting and related material that was not directly related to the work being undertaken.
As the work of translating, and hosting the EBTâs neared completion, more and more members of the public began accessing the site. So the focus became slightly broader, and allows discussion of EBTâs in order to foster a greater understanding of them. SO the forum has always had a very specific and quite narrow focus.
Because it is a core goal to make these texts accessible to the public, we place a high value on making it a comfortable and welcoming place. This is what drives our moderation approach.
The âactiveâ users are only a tiny fraction of individuals who use the place Most people use the Archive and search facilities, to look up answers to EBT related questions they have. This means that rather than relying on whoever happens to be online to answer any questions, members have access to really expert replies from top scholars in the subjects, as well as from experienced practitioners. We also have a large percentage of monastics who use the site, though often using âscreen namesâ.
I hope this background is useful.
2 Likes