Are ṁ ṃ and ṅ ṇ different letters?

[Sunyo]

@Thanuttamo

I argue that they cannot be the same sound, just by the mere fact that they are two (phonetically distinct) letters of the alphabet (or abugida/syllabic alphabet). The descriptions of the Pāḷi grammarians (e.g. Padarūpasiddhi) further support their distinctness. For example, guttural ṅ is said to be produced in the region of the throat (kaṇṭhaja) and in the nose (nāsikaṭṭhānaja), that is, in two places altogether. The niggahīta is just produced in the nose (nāsikaṭṭhānaja). Thus, it can be demonstrated that they cannot be the same sound …

Hello venerable,

I’ve been teaching the same in my Pali classes and I’m glad to see the research you’ve done. One example I always gave was that sa.m would sound like the French word sans.

To me also the sandhis of the niggahita (like ta.m ca into ta~nca, and such - sorry don’t have pali keyboard here) clarify that it was originally a nasalization of the vowel. For this results naturally from nasalizing the vowel.

Also it being in the original manuscripts more like a diacritic does not really suggest a consonant perhaps. I’m no expert on this though.

If I recall correctly, I found this video helpful, although it’s on Sanskrit.

Sanskrit Pronunciation 9 Anusvara and Visarga

[Suvira]

Re: Warder on no oral air release:

I don’t have quick access to the Warder book), but I think Warder is relying (correctly) on the Samantapasadika on that point re closed mouth (avivaṭena mukhena):

'Niggahita’’nti yaṃ karaṇāni niggahetvā avissajjetvā avivaṭena mukhena sānunāsikaṃ katvā vattabbaṃ.

Not that “anunāsika” means much here. It could equally be referring to a sound involving both the oral and nasal cavity (anu+nāsika), rather than a pervasive nasalisation of the vowel.

[trevor]

Thank you, Venerable, for your help.
with metta
Trevor

[Thanuttamo]

@Sunyo

If I recall correctly, I found this video helpful, although it’s on Sanskrit.

Thanks for sharing; I’ll have a look!

@Suvira

I am sharing this 2013 George Cardona article on this point, “Development of Nasals in Early Indo-Aryan: anusvAra and anunAsika”.

Looks interesting; I appreciate the sharing.

@Suvira

It might be a good topic for someone else’s PhD.

Indeed.

@Suvira

In the prophetic words of my highschool social sciences teacher, I am “just an erudite ne’er-do-weller”.

We must say, becoming a bhikkhunī comes close to do as well as one can in this world, but your high-school teacher, taking probably a worldly perspective, would perhaps disagree …