What would also be missing in this picture is the sharing of Dhamma.
6 Likes
At the monastery I have visited regularly in the U.K, week-end dana is a big family occasion for the local Thai and Sinhalese communities. The offerings always seem very generous, and may be elaborately gift wrapped, or comprise catering-sized foodstuffs contained in multiple carrier bags.
The Abbot knows most of these people very well, and engages them in jovial conversation, in Thai.
Some of the Sinhalese visitors are professional or business people, and have travelled from further afield. The Thai ladies, who seem to be dressed in their “Sunday best”, provide superb and dedicated service in the kitchen; the food being described as “top draw” by one of the voluntary kitchen managers! I generally leave my non-sweetened Soy milk and vegetables in the entrance hall, assuming it will be offered by someone.
2 Likes
Yes, it’s just a cultural hurdle people can get beyond. I think most people eagerly embrace the direct giving when they realize it is the necessary counterpart of monks not handling money. The Catholic Church does handle money, and has lots of investments in some unseemly activities.
Sounds very similar to the monastery I visit. I generally bring my food offerings when I show up for moon day evening pujas, and ask someone else to offer it in the morning.
1 Like
That is always most awkward for me, being a tall person with long legs. At the temple I attend there’s not really much room to maneuver very gracefully. I count it a success if I haven’t tripped anyone up.
4 Likes
I’m getting old, and it just hurts my knees.
3 Likes
Getting a bit EBT on this - a lot of the behavior in front of monastics is just cultural, right? I mean okay, food has to be offered in a certain way (i.e. not to touch it again). But the whole crawling around and bowing is not text-based, is it?
Under normal circumstances in non-Asia that’s a degrading slave-like behavior. Imagine a legendary company founder demanded this, Steve Jobs or so, his employees to crawl on their knees and bow down in front of him, or your local Christian priest (not that monastics demand it, it’s just custom).
Of course it’s awkward for Western monastics as well. So what would be the proper respectful behaviour of lay people towards monastics according to the texts - and as a second question: do we need that in the western integration of monastic Buddhism? Is it essentially necessary for requesting a monastic to teach the Dhamma?
1 Like
Sharing a video of how the daily dana offering is done in our small temple.
4 Likes
Same thing at Bodhinyana, Perth, Australia.
Some of my Thai friends who visit Bodhinyana don’t ‘hand’ her offerings directly to the monks. After all, they will come back to the kitchen or pantry. So, she will just put things in the kitchen and inform anagarikas who happen to be nearby of her offerings.
1 Like
There are in my opinion several ways one can make people “bow down”, like the act of “bow” is giving in to a “wow factor” and the “down” is the mind trapped in a little square of glass or a tiny bit of plastic fantastic …
I observed crawling and bowing for a good while before I came to my senses and accepted that these crawling friends was just happier than i felt in the same environment. And since that i been joyfully crawling too … skills from the past now coming back maybe … !? 
It’s all in how it’s viewed- anybody who went into a children’s soft play area would know what it’s like. You’re on your hands and knees with the other kids, in the jungle gym! It’s not meant to be humiliating or subservient- only an acknowledgement of the greater morality of the monkhood in general. I suppose this respect could be shown in other ways too, and not just the culturally determined ways. Older people or people with disabilities are excused of course.
With metta
2 Likes
I’m not sure where I’m going with this, just investigating with you guys. I have no problem with the customs myself, spent enough time in Asia and monasteries to be okay with it. Still I wonder about the compatibility with the West. The religious ritualistic behavior might be an unnecessarily big obstacle to swallow?
A good part of Buddhist discussions in the West are secular, and since many of the customs are not even EBT but purely cultural, wouldn’t it make sense to strip it down?
On the other hand a few Indian things did get mainstream, saying ‘namaste’ and chanting ‘om’ in otherwise purely sporty yoga, but kissing the guru’s feet will still not become a normal behavior anytime soon.
Sorry for touching other ideas, but this is connected of course to the question: What is the function of monastics in the West anyway? Dhamma texts and discourses are found on the internet, also communities (hic!) are online. There are many meditation teachers, traveling or in centers, they don’t have to be monastic (no judgement about quality). So is the West in need of Dhamma? Yes. But what does it “need” a Sangha for?
(again: Personally, I’d like to have serious monastics close-by of course, but I’d like to reflect that from the western discourse of people who are not connected yet, but with serious existential life questions, who go for self-help books, psychologists etc., but wouldn’t consider going to a monastery to ask the renunciates for their perspective)
I was observing a young man practicing in Lokuttara Vihara the other day, and was kind of impressed by his ability and skill in making a close to perfect lotus position in his sitting. But with more observing this didn’t seem like “samadhi” but more like a serious hobby.
It actually looked more religious and ritualistic than i’m used to feel when observing and practicing together with people who has this practice as a way of life and thereby hold rituals without grasping too tight.
1 Like
The function of the sangha is to allow individuals that are ready to make the leap to work to their liberation.
At the same time they become living examples and incarnations of the dhamma. They, if all goes well, become the Ariya Sangha. And it doesn’t even matter if they do get there, just trying in itself is a powerful message…
From a Western perstective I would say that a lot of people need to (re?)learn that we are all connected (with our human peers, but with all other forms of life sentient or not), and that supporting others is often the best way to support one self .
We also need to realise that the culture we live within is strongly skewerd toward economic growth and we’re often (against our own will) buying into an ideal that is the perfect representation of samsara: chasing after the next gadget, the next fancy restaurant, the next this and the next that to find fleeting happiness and very little fullfilment, but that’s what we are sold by advertising and most people life style.
So yes, living exemples showing that you can pretty much stop, no longer engage in this world and be a happy and worthy person is something that we do need more of!
7 Likes
It can be interesting to look at how Buddhism arrived in China. I’ve read some texts in the past describing what they felt necessary to change to have Buddhism flourish there – certainly because of local customs, but also because of other things, like climate.
(Though, as it probably can be guessed, some of these changes went against vinaya rules --apparently, some monastics were more comfortable with resorting to and working with the ‘abolishing the minor rules’ part. )
If I recall correctly, one struggle they faced was that they had a lot of problems with getting food on alms round. So, the idea of ‘No work, no food’ for monastics spread.
2 Likes
Here are some insights from a Bhikkhu on Tudong in the UK:
3 Likes
I think it’s important to consider the cultural milieu at the time of the Buddha. By the time the Buddha walked the earth in Jambudipa/India, there was already a well-established Samana culture in place. Anyone could renounce the householder life and become a homeless, wandering Sadhu. There were “Wanderer’s parks” where you could stay (and have philosophical debates), and hang out with the other naked, ash-smeared, matted hair renunciate freaks, who held all sorts of wide-ranging spiritual doctrines as being the highest truth. All you needed to do to be accepted and fairly well respected as a legitimate renunciate wanderer, pretty much, was be to be celibate, and have reasonable morality. You could then get almsfood in any village from pretty much any home.
It was a Brahminical/Hindu view (still widely existent in India today) at that time, that householders, right up to the king, had a duty to feed these renunciate, begging almsfood-seekers. They strongly believed that this duty to these supposedly wise men was a major and crucial puzzle piece for them, in gaining a heavenly rebirth, according to their widely-held religious beliefs. This faith in the Sadhu’s was very, very important to them.
The Buddha did not have to invent this system and culture of alms support (as well as the other 3 requisites). He simply made use of it, just like the Jains (and other such competing wanderer’s sects did). This is in stark contrast to the West, where no such system exists as a default. Sure, there are tiny little alms routes here and there in the West, but it is, by far, not the default.
So as you scratch your head, wondering if Buddhism will ever be sustainable in the West without the support of Asians, I think you need to widen your scope beyond Buddhism and ask “Do Westerners hold the view that it is their duty to directly support, on a pretty-much daily basis, religious, reclusive holy men/women who are celibate and have good morality, who might come knocking on the door daily with an alms bowl?”
Or course they don’t have that view. Where would that view ever come from? Mickey Mouse? Madonna? Donald Trump? Where is there any widespread Samana culture to speak of in North America (being broader than Buddhism itself)? How could you ever expect that view to take hold in a wholesale way in North American culture?
8 Likes
…without Asians
I think for Buddhism to move forward the contribution of Asians as well as Westerners are both essential.
with metta
4 Likes
I believe things would change for the better when westerners understand that the value of giving is something one just do - an act not for anybody special that is
I was programmed to participating more or less freely to impersonal organized goodness before adapting to the sentiment of my Asian friends.
I’ve also been told to trade my goodness based on how the receiver is judged, and if he or she show real appreciation …
And I guess that’s also why I didn’t feel any natural joy in my attempts to copying how my Asian friends did it.
2 Likes