Our Westerner values of “equality” can be a double-edged sword here. Westerners often feel it’s pretty much just as meritorious to give a sandwich to a homeless drunkard bum, than to give a sandwich to a holy person such as Mother Theresa, so therefore where’s the distinction, where is the substantial value of giving to a Buddhist monastic (over any other such needy, non-vocationally-religious person)?
When in a strongly Conservative Asian setting, no Buddhist monastic would dare show “real appreciation” (in the Westerner sense of what that should look like), as this behaviour would be reprimanded as being “ingratiating” and “pandering”. Again, this is in stark contrast to Westerner culture. When I was in Sri Lanka recently, it was pretty much considered a sign of complete lack of Spiritual progress if you (as a monk) laughed whatsoever. A big smile was similarily frowned upon.
A well behaved monk was also supposed to have “subdued” behaviour resembling that of a blind, deaf and dumb person. Westerners, on the other hand, pretty much need to see a highly jubulant, exuberant, happy, smiling, beaming, inspirational, charismatic monastic at all times, which would count as some sort of substantial evidence of Spiritual attainment.
Some do, but not nearly enough. Again, I think this is in large part due to fact that they have never been exposed to this way of thinking.
True, it does not exist in a widespread way outside of Buddhism. My hope is that Buddhism will become more widespread and that Samana culture and support of monastics will grow with it.
I don’t know that expect is the right word for me, but my hope is that as more and more generations embrace Buddhism and pass these concepts down to their children it will become a reality.
I’m not sure how many feel it’s “just as meritorious” Bhante. However, keeping in mind that a “homeless drunkard bum” is most likely to be a person with severe mental illness who has no access to any system that would help them, I think there is a good deal of merit in giving them a sandwich (though probably not in giving them alcohol or money to buy alcohol)
i noticed in the video the talk of laywomen was in a local language;was it the local language common in the region? i feel awkward and regretably ignorant when people around me speak at length in a lanuage i do not understand. It is very and unfortunately distracting for me, very hard to learn when my mind is so occupied.
It occurs to me that in all my western experience, dependence and generosity have been complicated experiences. Dependence on my parents was an ever mutually irritating experience, ended by mutual agreement as soon and as thoroughly as possible. Dependence in education was discouraged as a form of stupidity and sloth. Dependence in employment was exploited opportunistically whether one works in corporate or small business or not-for-profit sectors. Dependence on friends, intimate partners, or family was not respected and happy, it was shameful, humiliating, purposely inadequate, and celebrated only for termination.
Difficult, eh?
May all beings achieve compassuon, wisdom, peace. May all beings eliminate greed, anger, ignorance.
This was lovely; was it shared in this thread or another? But quite a mental tonic.
Also, considering my preceeding post, perhaps that makes more understandable why monasticism is perceived by some as heroic. I recognize that such a response would seem immature or shallow or counterproductive from other-experienced conditioned Points Of View. We all however deal with what we have to work with.
If we look at the world giving index we see that many Western countries are actually on the top 20 most giving countries (measured in helping a stranger, donating money and volunteering).
So at least there doesn’t seem to be a lack of desire to give money and effort to a worthy cause in the West.
I think the problems are mainly practical. The nuclear family means the kids are at school, and both mom and dad are at work from 8 am to 4 pm. People are basically busy from 8 am to 4 pm every day except weekends. In the old agrarian societies people had a lot more free time.
Lunch hours will range from 30 minutes to 1 hour, and in some countries people don’t go out to eat lunch, but eat it at work.
So while people have more than enough resources to support monastics, not many people will have time or a place to cook food and offer it. But this is mainly a problem of organization IMO.
Here are some possible solutions:
Subscription models. People can pay a monthly fee to support their local monastics. The money pays for someone else buying, making and offering the food (any surplus can be donated to charity). People can visit the monastery on weekends or on an ad hoc basis.
Corporate or university canteens. Many organizations have large canteens where people eat lunch. Making these open for monastics can be funded by lay people, corporate social responsibility programs or charity.
I would love to see monastics eating in my university canteen. I mean, I alone could (and would) sponsor one monastic five days a week in this way even though I am a student with limited means.
But it would be extremely difficult for me to show up 11 to 12 am somewhere further away, five days a week with home cooked food.
Edit: point being, you don’t even need a huge amount of supporters to feed monastics if the food distribution can be organized in a different way.
Point taken, but it removes that very important bond of mutual dependencies between the homeless and the parent, teacher and student, monk and lay practitioner and so on
In this country there is no shortage of empty churches that is roundly provided for
If that’s what you experience as fruitful for your own practice, then who am I to say it isn’t?
And I find the reality of being directly responsible for the welfare of the Sangha a personal gift that doesn’t stir up the same feelings as when I find information about our goodness on my tax report
I find that a fascinating aspect of our discussion, connected with modern life. Intuitively I completely agree that personal giving and receiving is much more inspiring, humbling and beneficial.
But why actually? Am I not venerating bodies then? Am I not indulging in narratives involving ‘my deeds’ etc., when as a dhamma student it’s more beneficial to focus on the good intention, the ethical implications and promoting the Dhamma?
What I’m saying is, maybe our day and age has the benefit of disembodied interactions that open up ways of practicing social life, dana, etc. that are actually beneficial.
How about taking the “disembodied” donations as a stepping stone?
IMHO it’s just as well to support a person remotely, for example because there isn’t anyone near you, and this could also afford others (that are local) the opportunity to given in-situ.
A way to ensure the sangha doesn’t starve when they enter “new territory”?
Possibly a tech innovation just around the corner can be useful: drone deliveries is already being ?tested?in beta for Amazon, including the grocery division, and there are food delivery services, for meal ingredients, or groceries, which perhaps could utilize either that, or whichever carrier FedEx or UPS or such’s drone fleet. Living in California, some of the monestaries are out in the boondocks but direct flight could be remarkably efficient.
Perhaps if lay had to video chat a monestary to arrange arrival time; there could be ipportunity for those lovely interactions… Or it could be monastic initiated, at a video booth in a grocery store, with drone delivery…
Dear Ajahn Brahm has in several talks mentioned a survey and research of “peak happiness” among ordinary shoppers. And the result showed that the happiest moment was after paying but before getting in your hands. And after getting it, the curve points down, until the next thing is in motion. That means to me that there are no lasting happiness in shopping, but what about giving and just let go?
I have tested and use this “natural force” in my regular job, and I find that it gives lasting happiness and positive energy long after the giving away has occurred. My team mates which has no knowledge of Buddhist mindfulness training, are puzzled because they see that I am always doing something, and hardly needs to take a rest, like they feel they just have to do because the job is so hard.
It is a bit difficult to make them understand that I don’t do it for them especially, but a doing it because this body are made for moving, lifting and so on, so why should i stop it?
One of the things that I was struck by, not long after I converted to Buddhism, was the great fortune that I had to meet a particular Sri Lankan man at the Buddhist Society in London. They were absolutely fantastic, they took me down to their small, local Vihara on a day when their family was offering food and subsequently they included me in every aspect of the various ceremonies at the Vihara. It was incredibly useful and instilled a sense of personal connection.
Now they knew that I was a convert to Buddhism, so I needed to be shown the ropes (or at least the pirith thread ) and they were very happy to oblige. Later on I realised that I was alone and had been singled out for this ‘training’ from many other people that they knew at the Buddhist Society. But why?
So I asked, and I was quite surprised by the answer.
Now a little bit of back story. I was born in India, and my parents and grandparents, etc., were born in India too. But I am an Anglo-Indian, and was born into a Catholic family. I came to the UK as a very young child and grew up in a Irish immigrant community rather than the local India immigrant community - there were both communities in the town that I grew up in - but the Irish community was Catholic. My parents were quite ‘Indian’ and my grandparents, who lived with us when I was a child, were quite a bit more ‘Indian’. Personally, I didn’t feel even a little bit ‘Indian’.
So when I asked why other people at the Buddhist Society didn’t get invited along, the answer was that they just wouldn’t know how to behave properly and it was because of my Indian background that I could be trusted. Now this may well be correct as I had been at least partially brought up by my grandparents. It is also true that it was some time before I was invited, so the Sri Lankan man could ‘see me in action’, before asking me along. But on the other hand, I think of myself as a Westerner, and maybe it was only because I was given the chance that I was able to show that I was to be trusted.
Reflecting on this I think that maybe I could envisage a sort of ‘Adopt a Westerner’ approach for Eastern Buddhist families, where they ‘train’ Western lay people in these Buddhist rituals in much the same way that the first wave of monks have been trained out in the East. So if you are a Eastern family, or one straddling East and West, maybe this is something that you might consider? I know that I shall be forever grateful to that kind man and his family for including me in their life and showing me the beauty of these Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions as they are practised in the UK.
You see, they are essentially emulating an arahanth in their behaviour!
) and they were very happy to oblige. Later on I realised that I was alone and had been singled out for this ‘training’ from many other people that they knew at the Buddhist Society. But why?