Are Theravada monasteries in the West sustainable without Asians?

The Watercooler
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But I wonder for whom? Do the ascetics need a Sinhalese treatment? I just hope that for monastics any polite kind behavior is equally pleasant, no matter if it’s Asian-religious or Western-informal. I find it psychologically weird when Westeners adopt an ‘exotic’ idea of what Buddhism is and then the practice to develop the mind is - as a reflex - mixed with that projection of an exotic fascination.

Asians have their specific customs but why should Westeners (in the west) adopt them? Should a newcomer visiting a Thai monastery in the West also do the “kruat nam” (water ritual)?

I understand that Asians can be protective of ‘their’ Buddhist customs, but I’d hope the monastics equally encourage dhamma-oriented informally behaving Westeners.

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Interesting question whether one should adopt rituals wholesale. However, I have a lot of sympathy with Ajahn Sumedho’s thoughts below. I’ve found that lay groups tend to develop their own rituals, which is also fine…

RW: As Abbot of Chithurst, how do you advise your monks to view ceremonies and rituals that might seem rather remote to the actual practice?

ASumedho: I personally like rituals. They are quite pleasant to do; they are calming. One does them with a group of people. It is doing something that is pleasant, together and in unison. The intention is always good: to radiate kindness and to chant the teachings of the Buddha in Pali. It tends to uplift and inspire the minds of many people. That is its only function as far as I can tell.

I think ceremony makes life much more beautiful. I have seen Dhamma communities which do not have ceremonies. They are a bit gross, actually.

RW: Gross?

AS: Gross. People just do not have a sense of etiquette, a kind of refinement, a lovely movement, a sense of time and place that one has when one understands the value of precepts and ceremonies. They have their beauty.

The bhikkhu form is a kind of dance one does. One learns to move. It has its own beautiful form, which is a way of training the physical form in beautiful movement, the mental and the physical combined. However, it is not an end in itself. It can become silly if it is an end in itself. And it is not necessary, either. If it does not fit or if people do not want it, then one just does not use it. It is something one can use or not use according to time and place.

If one has never used ceremony or does not understand its purpose, then when one is faced with a ceremony, one might reject it, thinking, ‘I don’t like it’, or ‘ceremonies are wrong’. But they aren’t! There is nothing wrong with ceremonies, they are quite alright to have. To feel one should not have ceremonies is just as much an opinion as to feel one should. It is not a matter of having to say one should or should not have them. They are a part of our tradition, so we use them if they are appropriate. If they are not appropriate, we do not use them. It is a matter of knowing, rather than of having opinions about it.

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=20963#p294558

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Haha we were talking about this the other morning when I dropped some nuns at the airport and we had to self-checkin. We came to the conclusion that a robot offering food by hand probably wouldn’t cut it vinaya-wise and so this would be the end of the Sasanna.

I love how multicultural the ‘western’ monasteries are. At the new monastery I’m at 2 of our weekday daana regulars are Western women. Also as far as I know the major/seeding donors for 3 of the 4 nuns monasteries in Australia are from Westerners. I couldn’t imagine the nuns monasteries without the Sri Lankan and other Asian communities though. They provide the foundation for both monasticism and Dhamma to be available to westerners.

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Wouldn’t it just need one upasaka/upasika who would receive the food/donations and then properly offer it to the monastics?

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So, a rephrasing of the question for a moment… Is there a Theravada monastery in the west now that is sustained primarily by people who are convert-Buddhists?

And by sustained, I mean daily support, not who donated the land, building, etc. Also by sustained I mean, could opperations continue in the long term more or less the same if all of the Buddhists who never converted to Budhism stopped supporting.

I think it might be more helpful to look at this in terms of new-Buddhists, rather than westerners. Is someone new to Buddhism going to have the faith to provide substantial material support to an organization/system that they do not have a life-long relationship with? I know quite a few convert-Buddhists who have a 20+ year relationship with a monastery and are quite generous. But they are a relatively small group.

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The only protectiveness I’ve encountered being a member of both thai and a western sangha, is from ignorant westerners, who even showed their arrogance openly. Maybe it was just me noticing this (hope so), and it’s more than just one individual who lacks a bit basic knowledge and how to respond friendly in a mixed dhamma setting.

Here is a dhammatalk about the power of giving. like mentioned before

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Thank you for reply. 1. Hmmm. 2. sadhu!

:anjal:

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it depends on how it is setup.

Bhavana Society is one of the few places that survives without a heavy base of Asian support, and that is due to us being a retreat center as well. We of course have people bring Dana and such as well, which helps, but if we stopped having retreats, we’d be gone in under a year. we are supported almost wholey by monetary donations from retreatants.

I Think Westerners can understand Dana pretty well, but for them it is much more common to have a money donation then to bring food etc. That being said I think more westerners are getting into the whole practice, and I see them more and more engaged in Dana, of food, money, time, and effort.

I have been to some other places with western monks in the West, specifically Thai Forest, who are heavily supported by the Thai community(also not retreat centers), and lets face it, even the western monks are essentially Thai, I don’t even know If I can consider it a “western Theravada Monastery” because it imports the culture as much as the dhamma, same with many Sri Lankan and Burmese places.

That is not to say there is no benefit from the culture and practices, as an anthropology major, I enjoy engaging with the various Buddhist cultures and learning their ways, but I honestly have no desire to become a Sri Lankan,Thai,Burmese monastic, and I am thankfully in a place that allows me to be unaffiliated in this way. You could say that technically I am a “sri lankan monk” as I was called when visiting a Thai place, because of the ordination lineage, but thankfully this is not how my preceptor, or I, see it. The Monks here like to be known simply as monks who follow the Dhamma & Vinaya, and I can get behind that as well, but there is a soft spot in me that wants to see the Dhamma flourish in my country.

I am heavily interested in the creation of an actual American Theravada, not in any official group sense, but in the way I heard put years ago, from a monastic source I no longer remember,but it went something like this " Buddhism has not truly taken root in a country until there are local monastics being supported by local people at local monasteries."

I think Buddhism in America is very young, especially Theravada, and it will be some time until that quote is realized, but I am happy to be in a place that is as close to that quote as you can find here.

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Thanks for sharing your experiences Bhante! I think it makes sense as a retreat center - like an exchange of services, we like the trade-idea in the West :slight_smile:

I don’t know quite the situation in Germany these days, but Ayya Khema had a following back then and some institutions got established in that context. Which shows how much charismatic figures can achieve - but take the celebrity away and I guess it then shows how substantial the Dhamma following was.

What I also like about the retreat approach is that the Asian habits give place to new habits to the style, questions and mindsets of visiting meditators. And not diminishing the essential contributions of the Asian supporters, but they rarely stay to meditate - so that would become the strength of a functioning Western community, that there would be a much higher percentage engaged in formal practice.

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It is true that the Asian supporters rarely come to retreats or meditate, but I have honestly noticed a huge upswing in the last two years of that, which makes me happy. Sri Lankan people coming during Dana times, and then showing up at retreats. I have heard on so many occasions " we were never taught this by the monks or our parents growing up".

Our retreats are not all/only middle class pure bread anglo American people, but even some Sri Lankan people and Thai people and even “people of color” as they call it, people from all backgrounds and walks of life… pretty much just like the country we reside in.

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That’s so nice to have that effect! Actually I witnessed some of the best lay communities in a city monastery in Colombo. Kids about 8-17 years old came directly from school, with bag and uniform, on their own, and sat for meditation for 30 minutes or more. A regular visitor, a girl of about 14, was in Jhana doing walking meditation - it was one of the most beautiful and inspiring things I’ve seen.

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It’s a shame the Buddha forbid the monastics to show their “super natural” abilities. I feel like in modern American society, if monks were able to show their ability to the lay people at their own discretion, no one would say “ohh that’s just a magical amulet!”

I feel modern society is so far gone into the world, in believing so much in mundane selfs and complete identification with personal views /beliefs/opinions etc that most completely disregard the age old practice of genuinely striving for awakening/god/self/etc as old mumbo jumbo. It would take such a blunt whack to the face like seeing monastics perform supernormal abilities to get them to realize they aren’t just another pair of “religious” people they don’t think twice about.

Not saying they should use it to be worshipped, just that if they were allowed to be used sparingly then it would have an actual effect and would be coarse enough of an example that it would be bound to catch American’s attention. Especially now that monk’s teachings are more readily available. Monks would continue to teach as normal, only pointing back to the Buddha’s teachings, not on the super natural abilities.

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Yeah, and then the market forces could ruined that thing to.

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Haha while I agree with your sentiment, i can’t picture capitalism making any money of those monks. The monks with those abilities are advanced on the path; those abilities are a result from a still mind via rigorous constant effort and firm established developed sila and samadhi, then taking that to further develop certain strengths of the mind mentioned as the iddhipada in the texts.

Those monks would have no interest in monetary gain. If anything, even if the Buddha allowed it, I wouldn’t be surprised if most monks chose not to show them to avoid the gain of status and fame.

Unfortunately, in this hypothetical scenario, I can picture unvirtuous lay or corrupt “monks” some how managing to market it with books and such. But that’s besides my point, for that would just push the fact that real monks are able to perform such things out to the masses, and those whose curiosity are piqued would find the dhamma talks of such venerable ajahns and will be taught the threefold training. And I believe it would result in more respect and belief in the Buddha’s teachings because in our current society, and the current culture of America, people need solid proof before believing or respecting anything.

I genuinely believe in the path and its fruits, I genuinely believe that there are arahants today. Yet I have no doubt the vast majority of Americans don’t. While we are respectful and tolerant, I don’t see the fact that arahants exist raising any faith over here besides the very small minority who have genuine interest… Probably from past lives. Cause I grew up with no contact with Buddhism, and there is nothing in this society that would lead one to have faith or belief in monastics and or monks.

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I would thank the Americans for being so empty all over that the rest of us just have to do it better, and that means doing nothing

So maybe the state of powers that be, is our salvation too …

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May all beings be happy. May all beings be well. May all beings have peace.