Asankhata, the Stable

Asankhata in Dhamma refers to what has no characteristics to arise, cease and change in the meantime (AN3.47).

I would say that this aligns with what is stable, constant, the not-desintegrating. And these are also used as synonyms for asankhata in SN43.14, together with: the subtle, the very hard to see, the amazing, the refuge, etc.

Because Asankhata is called very hard to see, i feel, it is rational that we understand asankhata as really points to something that can be known. I feel, it is irrational to think that ‘very hard to see, subtle’ are words to describe 'mere cessation, or 'nothing remaining after a last death.
The idea that asankhata can be known also aligns with MN115. In which is said that asankhata must be known to be called skilled and being an experts in the elements.

Buddha does not teach that there is only the element or aspect of what is arising, ceasing and changing. That is just one part of what we can know, as it were. Coming and going is not the complete picture! No change makes it complete.
Buddha clearly also teaches what is not arising, ceasing and changing, or in others words, what is stable, constant, not changing.

This can be a real ‘base’ for peace, for stilling of all formations, cessation, dispassion, purity. Asankhata, as it were, says that cessation is not nothing nor something. Where it points to cannot be considered to exist nor not to exist. Because it has not come into existence (no characteristics to arise) it can also not be considered an eternally existent thing, something etc.

So, from SN43.14 we can understand that Buddha saw asankhata as the stable and constant, the subtle, very hard to see, the Truth, the amazing, etc.

He did not teach the bliss, peace, of something eternal but the bliss and peace of what has no characteristics to arise, cease and change. This is beyond the world, it transcends conditioned existence. It will never be an object of the senses. The sutta’s do not teach that when all senses close down or cease, there is nothing. They also do not teach nothing after a last death of an awakened one.

I do not think that asankhata and atta are the same, nor that asankhata introduces an element of eternalism in Dhamma. But it certainly, beyond doubt, introduces the stable, the constant in Dhamma and, ofcourse, in reality.

There is, mendicants, that dimension where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no wind; no dimension of infinite space, no dimension of infinite consciousness, no dimension of nothingness, no dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; no this world, no other world, no moon or sun. There, mendicants, I say there is no coming or going or remaining or passing away or reappearing. It is not established, does not proceed, and has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.”

That it has no support, and is not established, means, i believe, it does not support on conditions.
Here the Buddha describes what does not depend on conditions and is therefor stable.

And the above clearly is not the right way to describe nothing after a last death. I do not understand why people uphold this irrational interpretation that the above verse is about mere cessation.
One cannot threat the cessation of a flame as if there is still something that is unestablished, unsupported and beyond samsara etc.

So, dukkha is in all conditioned existence because that always has an element of being unstable, not constant, cannot function as refuge, a base for peace. The end of dukkha lies in knowing the stable, the constant, the not-desintegrating, asankhata. The Buddha teaches the Path to Asankhata (SN43)

This to me makes sense.

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I believe one can also see it like this:

the mundane path is always about making, producing, creating, building up, constructing…but by nature that is all liable to cease, is not stable, constant, does desintegrate.

What is the builder? The builder is tanha. Tanha is like glue, it glues all together. One second glue :grinning:

Buddha makes use of our obsession to make, create, produce. He has also a mundane Path. He says, i believe: make, produce, construct all those skills that are conducive to the goal, namely, abandoning this builder, remove it, make an end to it.

If there is nothing built up, what is there to desintegrate? One arrives at the stable. The constant.

Since everything we know of arises and ceases, the unconditioned would have to be the “all-One” where everything conditioned emanates from, much like in Plotinus.

In his class to MN49 Bh. Bodhi mentions an ancient Pali commentary which is very interesting. Apparently Maro the Evil in the highest realm revolted against his father and took control from him.

He then possibly went on to create the conditioned. Because of his ignorance, he botched his creation and ended up creating birth, old age, illness, death.

Therefore, ignorance in the list of the 12 nidanas could possibly also be understood to refer to his ignorance, or cosmic ignorance as the initiating factor of creation in general.

You know this concept very well by know @Green.

If I understand you correctly, you are contradicting yourself here. So when a flame goes off is there anything remaining?
AFAIK, Nibbana is metaphorically compared to a flame because just like there is nothing remaining after the flame is extinguished, there is nothing remaining after the existence is extinguished or comes to an end.
With Metta

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The analogy is given because a lamp goes out when it runs out of fuel. There are four fuels, all of those have to have been “used up” or abandoned, faded away and rooted up for complete cessation (non-returning) to be arrived at.

The Jain method to vimokka is whatever fuel (karma) must be “used up” and exhausted (not cool), and the Buddhist method is the four fuels must be abandoned, left to fade away and be completely rooted up.

Hi @Nimal ,

I do not invent that the EBT teach that Buddha teaches a Path to Asankhata. I also do not invent how he uses this word in his teachings. As refering to: what has no characteristics to arise, cease and change. To what is stable, constant, not-desintegrating, the uninclined, very hard to see, the refuge, the amazing, peace etc. I also do not invent that one cannot be expert in Dhamma when one does not know the stable, the not-desintegrating. I also do not invent that Nibbana can be directly known.
I do not invent that anything that can cease, cannot be asankhata. So, a flame that can cease, is surely not asankhata. Asankhata is surely not anything that can cease, desintegrate nor change. Buddha has not defined asankhata like that and he does not use it like that. I do not invent all this.

Fire simile
I believe, the fire simile is used in the sutta’s only to point to the transcendent aspect of liberation.
One cannot grasp this all by intellect, and this also means, all intellectual positions fail.

"The Tathagata is liberated from reckoning in terms of material form, (and other khandha’s, Green) Vaccha, he is profound, immeasurable, unfathomable like the ocean. The term ‘reappears’ does not apply, the term ‘does not reappear’ does not apply, [488] the term ‘both reappears and does not reappear’ does not apply, the term ‘neither reappears nor does not reappear’ does not apply. (MN72)

Mere cessation is just the same as the position…“does not re-appear”…because mere cessationalist believe that ‘a being’, ‘the tathagata’, ‘arahant’, ‘Buddha’, ‘a human’, ‘a deva’…etc. are just conventional expressions/designations/names/labels, for what are in fact mere 5 impersonal processes (khandha’s). And that all ceases when liberation is attained.

Mere cessation is the same as the position: does not re-appear. That is also what a mere cessationalist wants. Not-re-appear again. This he/she sees as the goal, and there is nothing mysterious about this. The idea of mere cessation just means: does not re-appear. …as self, as processes, as stream of vinnana, as 5 khandha’s, as being…that does not matter.

But EBT teaches this does not apply. Why not? I believe, this all fails to integrate asankhata in Dhamma.

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How do the sutta’s really talk about Nibbana?

That wise mendicant here
rid of desire and lust,
has found the peace free of death,
Nibbana, the imperishable state. (Snp1.11, Sujato)

A Dutch translator (Peter van Slooten) translates:
Zulk een wijze monnik die in de wereld leeft en die bevrijd is van begeerte en gehechtheid, bereikt de onvergankelijke, kalme en onsterfelijke staat van Nibbana.

Translated into English:

Such a wise monk that lives in the world
and is freed from desire and attachment,
arrives at the imperishable, calm, immortal state of Nibbana (my translation into English)

Thanissaro:

With desire & passion faded away,
the discerning monk arrives here:
at the deathless,
the calm,
the undying state
of Unbinding.

Laurance Mills:

Such a monk who’s wise, desire
and lust discarded utterly,
attains to Deathlessness, to peace,
Nirvāṇa, the unchanging state.

If Nibbana ethymologically means extinguishment then it is the extnguishment of defilements, of the fires of lobha, dosa, moha. Also that way Nibbana is described in the sutta’s. Nibbana is taintless, purity.

Iti43 describes Nibbana this way:

The born, become, produced,
made, fabricated, impermanent,
fabricated of aging & death,
a nest of illnesses, perishing,
come-into-being through nourishment
and the guide [that is craving]—
is unfit for delight.
The escape from that
is peaceful, permanent,
a sphere beyond conjecture,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
stilling-of-fabrications, bliss.

sujato translates:

“What’s reborn, produced, and arisen,
made, conditioned, not lasting,
wrapped in old age and death,
frail, a nest of disease,
generated by food and the conduit to rebirth:
that’s not fit to delight in.
The escape from that is peaceful,
beyond the scope of logic, everlasting,
where nothing is reborn or arisen,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of all painful things,
the stilling of conditions, bliss.”

Ofcourse one does not speak of a mere cessation after a last death as a state beyond the scope of logic or as an everlasting state. Mere cessation is no state at all. To even talk about it as a state is irrational, let alone as bliss or pure. The purity of non-existence???

Ireland translates:

The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving’s cord—
That is not fit to take delight in.

The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned—bliss.

In such ways Nibbana is really described in the EBT : everlasting, imperishable, sorrowless state, stainless, unborn etc etc. Not as something that ceases .

Other positive ways the sutta refer to Nibbana are:
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …” (SN43.14 -43)

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Who you are is not a “thing, a self, or an identity”. There is no substantive designation there according to Buddhism. Nothing refers to the Realization that when all comes to nil, you find out who you truly are, so to speak. But it is beyond all conventions. Currently we are in a sleep. Awakening is very different.

Nina van Gorkom on Nibbana in Abhidhamma in Daily Life

The fourth paramattha dhamma is nibbana. Nibbana is a paramattha dhamma because it is real. Nibbana can be experienced through the mind-door if one follows the right Path leading towards it: the development of the wisdom which sees things as they are. Nibbana is nama. However, it is not citta or cetasika, paramattha dhammas which arise because of conditions and fall way. Nibbana is the nama which is an unconditioned reality8; therefore it does not arise and it does not fall away. Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object; nibbana is the nama which does not experience an object, but nibbana itself can be the object of citta and cetasika which experience it. Nibbana is not a person, it is non-self, anatta. (page10)

Note 8:”In Pali: asankhata: not conditioned, the opposite of sankhata. In the Dhammasangani nibbana is referred to asankhata dhatu, the unconditioned element. Sometimes the term visan˙ khara dhamma, the dhamma which is not sankhara (vi is negation), is used.

Thus, the conditioned dhammas, not nibbana, are impermanent and dukkha. But all dhammas, that is, the four paramattha dhammas, nibbana included, have the characteristic of anatta, non-self. ( Page 11)

Anything which is khandha does not last; as soon as it has arisen it falls away again. Although khandhas arise and fall away, they are real; we can experience them when they present themselves. Nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma which does not arise and fall away, is not a khandha. (page 14)

The element which is “constructed” (sankhata), is all conditioned realities (the five khandhas), and the element which is “unconstructed” (asankhata), is nibbana. Also nibbana is an element, it is not a person, it is devoid of self, anatta (page 121)

At the moment of enlightenment nibbana is the object which is experienced by the lokuttara citta. Some people think that nibbana is a place which one can reach, a plane of life. In order to have more understanding of what nibbana is, we have to consider what our life now is: nama and rupa arising and falling away. Our life is dukkha, because what arises and falls away is unsatisfactory. If nibbana would be a plane where we would continue to live, there would be no end to the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, no end to dukkha. Nibbana, however, is the unconditioned dhamma, it does not arise and fall away. Nibbana is therefore the end of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, the end of
birth, old age, sickness and death. Nibbana is the end to dukkha. When one has attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotapanna, it is certain that there will eventually be an end to the cycle of birth and death, an end to dukkha. (page 161)

When one is not an ariyan one cannot really understand what nibbana is. If we cannot experience yet the true nature of the conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away, we cannot experience the unconditioned dhamma, the dhamma which does not arise and fall away. (page 162)

Nina van Gorkom on Nibbana in Introduction to Abhidamma

All that is real can be classified as four ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas: as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned realities that arise and fall away and nibb.ana is the unconditioned element that does not arise and fall away. All conditioned realities that arise and fall away can be classified as five khandhas, aggregates. The five khandhas are not different from the three paramattha dhammas which are citta, cetasika and rupa. If one cultivates the eightfold Path one can have lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas which directly experience nibbana. (page27)

The Buddha reminded people of the dangers of birth and encouraged them to be mindful, in order to attain the “deathless’” which is nibbana.(page28)

When panna has clearly understood these three characteristics enlightenment can be attained. Panna which has become lokuttara panna experiences nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Nibbana does not arise and fall away; it is the end of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, the end of birth, old age, sickness and death. Nibbana is the end of dukkha.( Page32)

Bodhi on Nibbana, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma.

“Etymologically , the word Nibbana, the Pali form of the better known Sanskrit Nirvana-is derived from a verb nibbati, meaning “to be blown out” or “to be extinguished”. It thus signifies the extinguishment of the worldly “fires” of greed, hatred and delusion”.

"Though Nibbana is onefold according to its intrinsic nature, etc …“Nibbana is a single undifferientiated ultimate reality. It is exclusively supramundane, and has one intrinsic nature (sabhava), which is being the unconditioned deathless element totally transcendent to the conditioned world. Nevertheless, by reference to a basis for distinction, Nibbana is said to be twofold. The basis for distinction is the presence and absence of 5 aggregates. The element of Nibbana as experiened by the arahants is called’with the residue remaining (sa-upadisesa), because, thought the defilements have all been extinguished, teh residue of aggregates acquired by past clinging remains through the duration of the arahants life. The element of Nibbana attained with the arahants demise is called that ‘without the residue remaining’ (anupadisesa), because the 5 aggregates are discarded and are never acquired again. The tow elements of Nibbana are also called, in he Commentaries, the extinguishment of the defilements (kilesa parinibbana) and the extinguishment of the aggregates (khandha parinibbana).
It is threefold according to its different aspects: Nibbana is called the void (sunnata) because it is devoid of greed, hatred and delusion and because it is devoid of all that is conditioned. It is called signless (animitta) because it is free from the signs of greed, etc. and free from the signs of all conditioned things. It is called desireless (appanahita) because it is free from the hankering of greed, etc, and because it is not desired by craving.” page 259

I think this perfectly aligns with EBT.

I like that idea that there are not really two Nibbana’s. Nibbana is just of one nature.

Timeless Nibbana

Bodhi in CMA comments also on Nibbana as timeless because its intrinsic nature is without arising, change and passing away. Concepts are timeless because they are devoid of intrinsic nature. (page 137)

Sayadaw U Silananda on Nibbana, Handbook of Abhidhamma, part I

“Since concepts have no arising, no aging and no disappearing, they are said to be out of time. They are timeless. So Pannatti is said to be timeless, like Nibbāna. Nibbāna has no beginning, no arising. So it has no disappearing, no end. That is why Nibbāna is also called timeless. In the same way, Pannatti is called timeless”. (page 33)

"This definition shows that until we see them for ourselves, they are not ultimate realities for us. We may take, for example, Nibbāna. Nibbāna is the highest of the ultimate realities. Until we see Nibbāna for ourselves, until we realize Nibbāna for ourselves, it is not yet an ultimate reality for us. I may say, “May I attain Nibbāna” or “May you attain Nibbāna” or “I do this meritorious deed so I may get to Nibbāna.” We always say that. When we say, “Nibbāna”, the Nibbāna we are taking in our mind is not the real Nibbāna. It is just the name concept, Nibbāna. But when we see it for ourselves, when we experience the enlightenment for ourselves, then we will know Nibbāna through direct experience. Only then will Nibbāna become ultimate reality for us. Until we reach that stage, although Nibbāna is an ultimate reality, it is not yet an ultimate reality for us. (page 37)

"Nibbāna is defined as the extinction of desire, ill will and delusion. Actually it is the extinction of all mental defilements. It is like health or peace. Many people don’t like the negative words to describe Nibbāna. But I think we cannot avoid using negative terms. We do not mean that Nibbāna is a negative state simply because we use negative terms to describe it. Let us take health as an example. What is health? No disease. Freedom from disease or having no disease is called health. So health is a positive state, but it is described as absence of disease, absence of illness. Peace is also like that. Nibbāna is the extinction of desire, ill will and delusion. Actually that means Nibbāna is the extinction of all mental defilements. (page 45)

"It is unconditioned. Please note this. About two years ago someone gave me an article on Paṭicca-samuppāda. In that article the author said, “Nibbāna is conditioned”. I was very surprised. She said, “Nibbāna is uncompounded, but it is conditioned”. That is not correct. She did not understand the Pāḷi word ‘Sankhata’ correctly. Nibbāna is described as Asankhata. ‘A’ means not, so not Sankhata. Sankhata is translated as compounded by many authors. She took that as a correct rendering. So she accepted that Nibbāna is uncompounded. Nibbāna is not a compound of anything, but she said Nibbāna is not unconditioned. When the Buddha described Nibbāna, He used the word ‘not made’. Not made and unconditioned are the same. Along with the word ‘Asankhata’ another word used is ‘Akata’. ‘Akata’ means not made. Nibbāna is definitely unconditioned. There is no condition for Nibbāna. We cannot say Nibbāna exists because if we say Nibbāna exists we are saying it has a beginning and it must have an end. It is said that Nibbāna has no beginning and no end. Nibbāna is unconditioned and Nibbāna is not composed of any component parts. (page46)

"Many people think Nibbāna is a place or some realm to go to or to reach. If we say Nibbāna is the extinction of all suffering and that means the extinction of the five aggregates, you may not want to go to Nibbāna. You may not want to realize Nibbāna because we all think in terms of existence. If we are going to go out of existence and not become anything again, would it be acceptable to you? So it cannot be described in everyday terms. (page46/47)

"Nibbāna has no causes. Nibbāna does not depend on any condition. That is why it is called unconditioned. It is not made by any causes. Since it is not Atta it is called Anatta. (page 48)