At last, some good news

[Nadine]

@faujidoc1

The despair and apathy of the present generation

Copy cats! Generation X totally got there first.

[sujato]

@sinjin

Post it on AOC’s too. Bhante will be tickled.

It’s as if you know me!

@Nadine

Copy cats! Generation X totally got there first.

Preach, sister!

[ERose]

@Yasoj sinjin’s response offers some helpful historical context to a common worn slogan of protest of police brutality, corrupt authorities, and disparity under law. It is a rejection of social helplessness, hopelessness, despair, passivity. “Their own words” is perhaps misleading, when a writer is using such a slogan. However, at least in examining it as posted on that person’s website, this conversation has moved from referencing words of other Satanists as something for which that individual is responsible.

@Yasoj

using such hard language to provoke only lead to more anger and violence

Is this true? Protest movements have often used shocking language to provoke thought and discussion, as much as bodily action; this is to get apathetic or ignorant people to quesion authority and complicity. In US politics, “f°ck war”, “f°ck the patriarchy”, “f°ck consumerism” and “f°ck capitalism”, and “f*ck fascism” are examples of slogans of protest, going back to the 1980s or even the 1960s (as a F°ck Chant was part of the performance of an anti-war song at Woodstock, with that part getting Country Joe & The Fish blacklisted from network television and some radio stations).

I agree with @sinjin in that I don’t think anyone in the thread is celebrating the phrase. Though the OP title At last, some good news suggests something positive to recognize (perhaps; whatever it is is not explicit in the OP.)

I do celebrate (as others have) this conversation and examination for ourselves, of assumptions and conditioned reactions. That seems to me to be beneficial, and maybe losens the grip of self views.

[Yasoj]

@ERose

this conversation has moved from referencing words of other Satanists

If I follow your logic, then we cannot derive any meaning from any words unless we have checked the meaning of such word with that person. This is too high of a standard I believe. Trying to not make assumptions is great but at some point we all have to make some assumptions about what a word means.

@ERose

Protest movements have often used shocking language to provoke thought and discussion, as much as bodily action; this is to get apathetic or ignorant people to quesion authority and complicity. In US politics, “f°ck war”, “f°ck the patriarchy”, “f°ck consumerism” and “f°ck capitalism”, and “f*ck fascism” are examples of slogans of protest, going back to the 1980s or even the 1960s (as a F°ck Chant was part of the performance of an anti-war song at Woodstock, with that part getting Country Joe & The Fish blacklisted from network television and some radio stations).

I appreciate the historical context, thanks. It’s not because it is a common occurrence that it is right or good. For me the end doesn’t justify the means. My personal preference is for less provocative language and approaches, I’m not inspired by the provocative, sarcastic or violent ones.

[ERose]

@Yasoj

If I follow your logic, then we cannot derive any meaning from any words unless we have checked the meaning of such word with that person

Not my logic, or words.
A difficult standard at least, perhaps impossible if communication is impossible (which is sometimes the case).

@Yasoj

It’s not because it is a common occurrence that it is right or good. For me the end doesn’t justify the means. My personal preference is for less provocative language and approaches, I’m not inspired by the provocative, sarcastic or violent ones.

Common is not from that quality right or good, I agree.
I too prefer less provocative or aggressive approaches.

I still wonder what particularly inspires Bhante @sujato 's OP, as I wonder if we have used it as intended.

I think the concepts of “only” or “inevitably” may not be entirely compatible with the Dhamma; what do you think? Or the concepts of “ends” and “means” as absolute truths; those concepts are perhaps not how things are or can be.
Conditionality and kamma and non-self to me suggest the possibility of doing better and movement towards (or away from) liberation. But maybe some predictability is possible, from understanding dynamic principles.

edit: after writing all the above I read Bhante’s Harbingers—I’d rather be a Doomer than a Boomer, linked above. Stimulating social commentary, thank you, Bhante!
I am glad the world gets his voice and grounded teachings (which might be characterized as provocative…) May it be of lasting benefit to many lives.

[sinjin]

@Yasoj

For me the end doesn’t justify the means.

This is a more serious charge than you may realize. You are suggesting, in an indirect way (which is a little off in itself), that DiMezzo is being Machiavellian. I’m not sure what you mean by “ends justifying means,” but it is commonly understood to mean that someone is employing starkly immoral means like lying, stealing or killing to achieve a supposedly noble end. That is simply not what’s going on here. Not only is using a naughty word not immoral, its use here is an end unto itself. It’s an expression of righteous anger in political protest. And yeah, it’s harsh.

No one who is part of this conversation is endorsing immorality, and while we may try on this forum to heed as much as possible the five aspects of right speech, I don’t think it is incumbent upon us to hold those outside it to that standard, or refuse to support those who commit minor offenses against it.

[bridif1]

@Yasoj

If I follow your logic, then we cannot derive any meaning from any words unless we have checked the meaning of such word with that person. This is too high of a standard I believe. Trying to not make assumptions is great but at some point we all have to make some assumptions about what a word means.

Hi Yasoj!
Maybe, a useful principle is the application of an idea expressed by Charles Sanders Peirce:

‘Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts.’

Basically, what that would intails is the normal and unquestioned continuation of our lives, actions and perceptions until something feels “off”: that feeling is “doubt”, which can be characterized as some kind of “irritation”. Only when that “irritation” arises, then it is useful to inquire about the situation which could be the cause of it. In the case of the the topic of the thread, we ask about definitions of some concept when we feel a possible misunderstanding.

The irritation of doubt causes a struggle to attain a state of belief. I shall term this struggle inquiry.

With the doubt, therefore, the struggle begins, and with the cessation of doubt it ends. Hence, the sole object of inquiry is the settlement of opinion.

If we doubt about everything, the we wouldn’t be able to act at all, because we’ll be always in fear of the the wrongness of our knowledge about the world (and about others). If we know nothing about the world, then we wouldn’t be able to satisfy any desire at all, since fulfillment of desires requieres some degree of an ability to predict outcomes. If no such prediction is possible, the communication wouldn’t be possible at all. It would be better, then, to stop actions altogether. This tells us that an extreme skepticism is not compatible with actions in the world.

Healthy skepticism, according to Peirce, is the one we apply when our beliefs about the world seem interrupted by the irritation of doubt.

Sorry for the excursion, but I thought it could be useful to make explicit this helpful pragmatic principle.

Kind regards!

[Samvega]

@Yasoj

So what do you make of ‘F*** the police’? This is their own words.

Police is a system made of people. One can speak out against the system.

[JimInBC]

I find this a very creative, non-violent protest. The use of the system to subvert the system - getting the Republican Party nomination - seems like performance art protest.

Yes, for my taste, their use of the phrase “f**k the police” seems off. Not because of the language, but because it just seems so pedestrian compared to the brilliance of the rest of the protest.

I am feeling very uplifted right now.

[sinjin]

@anon82557130

let’s work out the sensitivities of Satanists…

C’mon, the thread is basically a lark. Would you prefer that SC shut down the Watercooler as long as there is tragedy and horror in the world?

If you read more carefully, you might see that to the degree that this is a serious discussion, we are working out community standards and principles of Right Speech. Is that cynical? Btw, we are ordinary people too.

Thanks for the good news! I live in New York City. You may have heard that we had a bit of a problem with COVID a few months back. I’m happy to report that we have flattened the curve, kept it flat, and people are still doing great with social distancing measures. Schools are a bit touch-and-go, but we are working it out.

I have many friends and family in Lombardy, and I’m sad to see case counts are on the rise there.

[Yasoj]

@sinjin

This is a more serious charge than you may realize. You are suggesting, in an indirect way (which is a little off in itself), that DiMezzo is being Machiavellian. I’m not sure what you mean by “ends justifying means,” but it is commonly understood to mean that someone is employing starkly immoral means like lying, stealing or killing to achieve a supposedly noble end.

Dear @sinjin,

I didn’t know that this expression had such a narrow range, thanks for explaining this to me. In that case, I do agree that it does not apply here, I just thought the expression could also be used for (let’s use an EBT term) ‘unskillful’ means not as severe as the ones you listed. I stand corrected.

Ah the pitfalls of language…

[sinjin]

I’m glad I could be helpful.

Yes, it’s pretty specific in that a lot philosophical discussion pivots on it, sort of like “free will.” You live, you learn! Nobody’s vocabulary is ever complete.

[JimInBC]

@anon82557130

And with that I tip my hat and take my leave.

Bonne chance!

May you and your students be well, May you all be healthy, May you all be safe.

[Nadine]

As there is open acknowledgement that this thread took a turn for the worse, I hope that it won’t be necessary to close it. Please be respectful of each other.