Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 10

Wow- translating Warder into 2 languages!
As if translating into 1 wasn’t challenge enough!

Maybe you can work on Proust into Pali next!

“ Three versions of Proust’s first sentence—“Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure .”—have been published. The Scott Moncrieff-Kilmartin: “For a long time I used to go to bed early.” James Grieve (an Australian professor): “Time was, when I always went to bed early.” And mine: “Time and again, I have gone to bed early.”


thank you so much :heart:

Warder says that the gen. sg. of the feminine pronoun ayaṃ is assā or imassā. On the YouTube Learn Pāli channel, they say that imassā seems to be a typo and that it should be assā or imissā instead. Does anybody know which one’s correct?

(Bhikkhu Ñāṇatusita has an even different form in his 2005 pronoun declension table (imāya), which I assume is incorrect.)

Yesterday, after several minutes of going down this rabbit hole, I uncharacteristically abandoned it. (So much more gratifying, in general, to keep going after a thing.) Then, cheerfully this morning, I found Deerayupa’s chart (in her Lesson 10 notes) that may answer this:

“N.B. the misprint on Warder p. 56: read imissā for imassā for the feminine singular.”

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Always good to check the Dictionary:

I. Forms. A. (sg.) nom. m. ayaŋ Sn 235; J i.168, 279; f. ayaŋ [Sk. iyaŋ] Kh vii.12; J ii.128, 133; nt. idaŋ Sn 224; J iii.53; & imaŋ Miln 46. acc. m. imaŋ J ii.160; f. imaŋ [Sk. īmāŋ] Sn 545, 1002; J i.280. gen. dat. m. imassa J i.222, 279 & assa Sn 234, 1100; Kh vii.12 (dat.); J ii.158; f. imissā J i.179 & assā [Sk. asyāḥ] J i.290; DhA iii.172. instr. m. nt. iminā J i.279; PvA 80 & (peculiarly or perhaps for amunā) aminā Sn 137; f. imāya [Sk. anayā]


One of the most cherished mundane Western phrases of all time. I’ve always preferred the first one you cited. It is still the case for me (going to bed early), which is why this pāli course works well for me.

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Warder and Ajahn Brahmāli reference D II 16 for tassa ratanāni bhavanti. The PTS version says tass’ imāni satta ratanāni bhanvanti . This aligns to Bhante’s English translation in Sutta Central. Would seem like leaving out the number seven is a major difference?

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Do you mean ‘imānī satta’ is omitted in the Warder textbook?

This might simply be if numbers haven’t been introduced yet in the book.

But yes, the DN 14 has that.

Interestingly, looking at Rhys-Davids’ translation it’s rendered::

“His do those seven treasures become, to wit…

This alternative for ‘bhavati’ helps give the sense that this will be in the future, although the verb is present tense.

Thanks for letting us know, let’s re-evaluate the time following today’s lesson.

These negatives are doing my head in! It’s indeclinable.

The problem is the English: will not be for a long time means “will not happen until after a long time”, but what you want to say is, “will happen shortly”.

90% of translation is the target language!

Neither: it’s a variant reading. MS edition has:

bījayamāno → vījayamāno (bj); vījiyamāno (sya-all); vījamāno (pts1ed)

Inconvenient, but there we are.

Often the sense can be happily construed either way, which is why these two cases have nearly dissolved into one another.

  • there will be children of these people
  • there will be children for these people

Regardless, we translate:

  • these people will have children

(it’s weird to think there is no direct equivalent to “have”!)

Spelling! Tathāgata.

There’s actually a bunch of words for “person” in Pali: jana, nara, posa, purisa, manussa, and probably more!

? sarīrānaṃ is genitive plural, bhāgaṃ accusative singular, “a share of the relics”.

To answer the original question, the genitive usually comes first, like in English: “Dheerayupa’s answer”.

Indeed, can confirm, imassā does not occur in the Pali canon.

Spelling! bhavanti.

Hmm, in my translation the “becomes” is in the previous line, and inferred later, but perhaps rephrasing this would make it clearer.


Whoops- a very sloppy mistake on my part. Very sorry, thank you for the correction Bhante.


Bhante @sujato, I understand that this translation might require knowledge beyond Lesson 10, but I thought despite my limited knowledge, perhaps I might be able to convey a similar message.

I’d be so grateful if you could kindly correct my Pali. :pray:

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Dear Bhante @sujato, I made the same mistake as @acala.

My first interpretation reaction (and thus translation) is “will not be for a long time” though based on what I know about Buddhism, this sentence should mean “will happen shortly”. But as a translator, we sometimes don’t have the good fortune to know the actual ‘fact’ to base our interpretation/translation on.

So, my question is: grammatically, how can we know how to interpret Na ciraṁ?



I’ve heard the same is the case in Finnish. They cannot say, “I have a house”, but instead have to say, “on me is a house”. O heavy burden! :cold_sweat:

Going forth really seems like the better option then …


" Indeed, can confirm, imassā does not occur in the Pali canon."

Bhante, @sujato did you say this from memory, given you have translated it all! or do you have a PDF of the entire cannon you can quickly search? Yes, I know it is all on Sutta central, but is there a way to search the entire cannon for something you are looking for pls??? Would be wonderful if there was!


The site search has gotten quite good. Give it a try if you haven’t in a while.

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Bhante had previously explained how he searches offline:

There are also quite a few apps that work well:

Buddha’s Words

Digital Pali Reader (only has Bhikkhu Bodhi & Ajahn Thanissaro’s translations) Can be installed offline and works well!

Tipitika Pali Reader App


Thanx! Much appreciated