Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 13

Thread for discussing chapter 13 of Warder for the class on October 24th.

Meeting ID: 869 8997 6290
Passcode: 2023

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Still recovering from last week :hot_face::sweat_smile:


Though Ven @khemarato, your post here appears to be somewhat in jest, I would suggest that there is a strong grain of truth in it. The amount of material to learn in Lesson 12 was considerably larger than in previous lessons. Hence I would like to recommend to Ajahn @sujato that we just take a pause here, to give everyone a chance to consolidate and catch up on things, and save Lesson 13 until the following week.

Then next week’s online class can be devoted to walking through the important and somewhat tricky topic of relative-correlative clauses, and the distinction between relative pronouns and interrogative pronouns. And, of course, any other questions that have arisen from all the material learned so far.

Just a thought. What do others think?


I for one would be incredibly grateful for a week’s breathing space. :smiley:

EDIT: However, perhaps we should let Bhante present Lesson 13 as he planned, and then reconsider a breathing space when John takes over.

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I still had some questions from the English to Pāli exercises in the last chapter which we didn’t have time to discuss in class and I’m sure others did as well… however, if Bhante thinks that those exercises aren’t as important as the Pāli → English exercises, I’m also happy to just let go of those questions and move on to the next chapter to keep up the momentum :grin:


I prefer to keep going. But of course I understand if people want a break.
Thanks for your compassion with us, John :slight_smile:


I’m ok with whatever suits you and Bhante.

However, a small request for the future. Please allow two sessions to cover a lesson with too much info. :grin:

Perhaps we could even do a small number of translation exercises in class just to clarify as well as exemplify what we’ve learnt during the period.

Again, I’m really grateful to Bhante @sujato, @stephen and you for helping us along this journey to ‘boldly go where very few have gone (and survived) before’. :pray:


:laughing: I guess that’s why they call Sanskrit the “language of the Gods” huh? :rofl:


Dear Bhante, :pray: sorry that for the coming class 24.Oct I unable to join as I have other activity in our university.

Dear Bhante @sujato,

A bit related to this lesson. Meiland gave an example of compound nouns:

Buddha-bhāsito dhammo kalyāṇo hoti.

I’ve heard this sentence very often and the Thai translation for kalyāṇo is ไพเราะ.

The thing is the word ไพเราะ/พิเราะ in our common language is a modifier (adjective or adverb) to modify something related to sound such as music and to mean beautiful (thus beautiful sound)

People can understand the meaning of this word in this context (I guess), but I’m thinking that the word งดงาม might be better as the connotation of งดงาม is broader (including ‘good’).

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Pali’s causatives really cause me to have a headache! :grin: :laughing: :rofl:

Lesson 13 - Notes.pdf (392.0 KB)


Isnt Buddhism more Star Wars than Star Trek :slight_smile:
I am certainly overwhelmed by the amount of content but happy with whatever Bhante wants to do of the various options discussed in this thread…whatever happens, I plan to start again from scratch in December and go through the material (for the third time for some chapters!) to see if a bit more sticks :wink: I used to pick things up quicker but I guess anicca is true after all…


What you have written, that is correct. … :older_woman:



It’s funny to notice the difference between our perception and reality.

When I work on a translation assignment (I’m semi-retired), I don’t think I do badly. So, I ‘perceive’ myself as not so bad when it comes to the matter of the brain cells. However, this course has shown me that they have taken longer to understand/see clearly what I would have been able to in a short time when I was young.

The law of anicca holds so true.

Thank you all for being patient and kind to this classmate of yours.



I also find that I’ve lost my once good ability to learn vocab lists. I have to learn short sentences instead, so that the words relate to each other. It’s like my brain has decided, “Enough with single words and syllables, you have enough bits of random languages floating around inside already.” :rofl:

Congratulations on finishing the chapter. I have yet to start. :older_woman:

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Thank you, John and others, for your thoughts about the intensity of Chapter 12. Well, now I’m finding the intensity of causatives to be similar! Not even counting the amount of time I spent trying to find the pr 3rd sing conjugation for pācayato (= pacati) (I don’t recall Warder introducing the verb until Chapter 13 as a causative participle (genitive)?).

Every week I end up spending the first half re-reviewing the chapter we just covered, especially focusing on the exercises and filling out my own note cards. Then the second half I dive into the upcoming chapter. As a result, I am behind.

At the same time, I know this is Bhante’s last class with us (on Tuesday) and I know he will teach Chapter 13 in a way that is invaluable. So I would rather he teach Chapter 13 and perhaps we have to go through the exercises with the aid of the answer key.


Hi perhaps you mean

Pāceti [Caus. of pacati] to cause to boil, fig. to cause to torment D i.52 (ppr. pācayato, gen., also pācento).

From PED


Hi Beth,
As Stephen correctly points out the 3rd sing causative of pacati is pāceti. However, note that we can have an alternative causative form pācayati [See Warder p.79 “… causative meaning with a stem in e or a ‘fuller’ form aya …”] That’s where the genitive pr part form pācayato on p.82 comes from.


Warning! Not-for-children’s ears

It’s my personal work assignment, but it’s related to our lesson as it’s about compound nouns.

I’m translating the title of a movie ‘House of Whoreship’. A bit difficult. So I will just say ‘House of Prostitutes’. However, to make it a nice title, I think I will use Pali words, which is a common practice in Thailand.

gaṇikā means courtesan
ṭhāna means place (In Thai, it is Sathana)
ālaya means abode, house, hall,

So, I’m thinking ‘Ganikasathana’ or ‘Ganikālaya’.

But I also like to know if there are other possible compound nouns to convey the same meaning.

Thanks in advance.

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There’s still another word for “prostitute” which describes perhaps a less distinguished person than the word gaṇikā, that’s vesī or vesikā. See Thag 7.1:

Thag7.1:1.4: pādukāruyha vesikā.
the courtesan was wearing sandals.

Bhante Sujato renders both gaṇikā and vesikā as “courtesan”, but I think gaṇikā is really someone more related to upper-class clientele (as is the word "courtesan) which we see for example in how Ambapālī is described: going to visit the Buddha with an entourage of five hundred chariots, just as kings and aristocrats do.

So perhaps vesikā refers to a “simpler” kind of prostitute.

Depends on which nuance you wish to capture here.