Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 14

DPD use of abbreviated term abs for what Warder calls gerund.

I may be the only one late for the party here. But I finally figured this out.

Study well! :upside_down_face:

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not the whole of Asia … just two people in New Zealand!! (NZ lies east of both Australia and Asia.)

absolutive = Warder’s gerund.

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Literally any time works for me except my afternoon (my sleep is extremely flexible anyway) There’s also @sood

Oops :grimacing: ugh…yes, what I really meant was Asia, NZ, Australia and Europe!

I have two questions about the passage for reading.

tena hi samma tvañ ca sannabharam bandha, ahañ ca sannabharam bandhissāmi.

In DPD I can only find bandha either as “rope” in composite or vocative, but not as the verb bind in imperative form, which seems to be what John Kelly brought up in the answer key. Can somebody help understand the use of bandha in this sentence?

And in this sentence:

te yena so janapado yen’ aññataram gāmapadam ten’ upasamkamimsu.

When we have two yenas before the tena upasamkamati, this will indicate one going to a place (indicated after the first yena) that is located inside the place indicated by the second yena?

I’m happy with whatever gets decided and will continue the course if possible. Whatever time suits John Kelly and the rest of the group is fine by me.

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‘bandha’ would be the 2nd person sing. imperative of the verb bandhati. ‘You bind’ ‘you tie up’.

Do you have a paradigm of the imperative?
As was discussed earlier, if the present stem ends in -a the stem alone can be used.
See G&K III.5 (p. 36).

I don’t quite understand your second question, it seems a sequence of movement, first to a country then a particular village.

Thank you, @stephen . Now that you mentioned I found it on DPD also. Sometimes I get lost in the dictionary.

The second question is on how to understand the structure of that sentence.

te yena so janapado yen’ aññataram gāmapadam ten’ upasamkamimsu.

What I usually do is get the meaning and declination of each word:

they(nom) where(instr.) that(nom.) location (nom.) where(instr.) a certain (acc.) village-road(acc.) there (instr.) they approached

My initial thought is that it meant:

they approached that location through a certain village road.

Jhon Kelly has it as:

They went to a certain village street in this district.

If it is a sequence of movements, as you said, would it be something like this?

they approached that location and arrived at a certain village road.

Also, just in general, I’m finding it difficult to work with sentences with many words. Often, they seem like a puzzle that has many different possible ways of arranging. Also, many words are polysemic, often with many very different meanings. Do you have any advice?

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The ‘yena’ has the sense of ‘towards’ or ‘at which place’ (where)
There are two pieces. -
-they towards (where) that country
-towards (where) a certain / particular village there they approached.

Mr. Kelly’s translation reverses the original Pali order but means the same.

The idea is that first they went to a country / region and then proceeded to a specific village and street.

Towards that region, towards that very street in the village they traveled.
(It sounds a bit Dickensian but that’s how I understand it literally. )

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May I ask some questions regarding this sentence in the exercise section?

khīṇā me āsavā

Q1: Is āsavā nt nom pl of āsava?

Q2: Is khīṇā pp nt acc pl of khīṇa?

Q3: Is that sentence in passive sense?

Q4: Is me 1st instr sg of ahaṁ and therefore translated as “by me”?

Q5: Are other scenarios valid such as below?

  • my (me – 1st gen sg of ahaṁ)
  • from me (mayā/me – 1st abl sg of ahaṁ)
  • for me (me – 1st dat sg of ahaṁ)

In other words, besides a translation of “The defilements are exhausted by me”, can other translations below also valid?

  • My defilements are exhausted
  • The defilements are exhausted from me
  • The defilements are exhausted for me

I am asking because note #13 of Ven. Brahmali is telling that:

while I can only see instrumental case valid base on analysis from Q1 to Q3

Q6: What is “NCRP I 3.3” in note #10 of Ven. Brahmali?

Have fun in PNG, I’d love to visit one day!

yes, but in addition note that declined forms in Pali never end with n. It’s always ṁ, and final n is a product of sandhi.

Ha ha, yes, I always use “absolutive”, it’s less confusing.

One trick, chop the end off and search for bandh. This gives you the root, under which you find all the derived forms listed. Crikey, DPD is really good!

Um, I think it’s normally masculine not nt., but DPD gives both.

Past participles, as adjectives, are not gendered, rather they agree with the noun. So this is nom plural.

Yes.

No, it’s genitive here, “of me”, i.e. “my defilements have ended”.

Brahmali is technically correct—the best kind of correct!—but the sense is definitely genitive. Elsewhere the more explicit form is used.

“an4.36:5.5”: "Te mayhaṁ āsavā khīṇā
“pli-tv-bu-vb-pj4:8.12.2”: "Sopi evamāha—“mayhampi, āvuso, āsavā pahīnā”ti

To help distinguish these kinds of cases, bear in mind the “principle of least meaning”. If a mere enclitic particle of ambiguous interpretation is used, it is typically because the most obvious sense is the right one. Now, in such a case, it is clear they mean "my defilements’, not someone else’s, so interpreting me as genitive adds little or no meaning. On the other hand, saying that they are ended “by me” adds an extra meaning, albeit slight. So unless there is reason to assume otherwise, prefer the reading that adds least meaning.

No idea! @Brahmali a little help please!

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Could I say that the statement that the info in this lesson is overwhelming is an understatement?

:grin: :grin: :laughing: :joy: :rofl:

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It could be Gair & Karunatillake’s New Course in Reading Pali. (G&K). Chapter 1, Section 3.3.
(Which is on p. 8 and concerns the quotation marker (i)ti. )

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Combination of Warder’s lesson, Stuart’s notes, and Meiland’s explanation
Lesson 14 - Notes.pdf (459.7 KB)

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Not me, nearly 30 years after studying it, and still learning new things every day!

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I’ve spent a lot of time, trying to understand the Optative Case (= mood in English) as it feels similar to the subjunctive mood in English, and have found this: Optative Mood: Definition and Examples | StudySmarter

Dear Bhante @sujato, can this explanation be applied to the Pali Optative?

I am having some confusion with this…

So in DPD upādāya and ādāya are listed as gerunds - which it then defines as “verbs ending in “-ing” describing ongoing actions.”

Disvā, however, is listed as an absolutive.

Are they just referring to the same thing using different terminology? I thought ādāya was an absolutive.
When we did the Pali classes with Bodhinyana we also learnt about “gerundives” which are future participles. So at the moment I have a gerund soup in my head.

I also have another question which came up when I was looking at the confession formulas that the monks/nuns use:
Passasi ayye? (when addressing a junior nun)
Do you see, Venerable lady?
Passatha ayye? (when addressing a senior nun)
Do youse see, Venerable lady?

Āyatiṁ ayye saṁvareyyāsi. (when addressing a junior nun)
In the future, Venerable lady, you should be restrained.
Āyatiṁ ayye saṁvareyyātha. (when addressing a senior nun)
In the future, Venerable lady, youse should be restrained.

Why is the plural considered more polite? I had it explained to me that it is less direct to say “youse” in the plural, so that is why it is used for senior monastics. Is that sense there in how the singular and plural are used in the suttas?
It also seems confusing since ayye is in the singular locative not the plural in both cases.

Sorry for asking a question that is not directly related to this weeks lesson (although the optative is used)!

“ping” @sujato

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Not many questions today (this doesn’t imply that I understand everything well. Au contraire…)

Question: puccheyyām’ ahaṃ bhante kañ cid eva desaṃ

Ajahn Brahmali = May I ask, Venerable Sir, (about) some point?

Would it change the meaning if we place ‘puccheyyām’ at the end of the sentence?

Question: devā tamhā kāyā cavanti

Ajahn Brahmali: The deities fall from that group.

Can this interpretation be ok? The deities passes away from that group (= they finish their heavenly kamma and are to be reborn in another realm).

Question: yan nūna mayaṃ kusalaṃ kareyyāma

Ajahn Brahmali: What now if we were to do that which is good?

Could we ‘not’ use the past subjunctive tense of the verb to be, but use the verb to do in the present tense instead? “What if we do what is good?”

Question: I got up from my seat and left.

Ajahn Brahmali: (Ahaṃ) uṭṭhāy’āsanā pakkāmiṃ.

Can it be a simple sentence like this? “(Ahaṃ) āsanā uṭṭhahiṃ, pakkāmiṃ”

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This question is not about our answers to the questions, but about the sentences (questions) in the exercises themselves.

It’s a question on the word order. (I understand that the word order in Pali is fluid, but still I would like to try to categorise some logical patterns to lessen the likelihood of me getting lost…)

khīṇā me āsavā

Ajahn Brahmali: The outflowings (āsavā) have been exhausted by me.

Could we have another word order apart from khīṇā me āsavā?

Similar sentences:

puccheyyām’ ahaṃ bhante kañ cid eva desaṃ
na dān’ ime imamhā ābādhā vuṭṭhahissanti

I believe Mamaṃ āsavā khīṇā would work, but would be less emphatic. (Also, the enclitic me seems to be generally preferred over the initial mama(ṃ)?)

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