DPD use of abbreviated term abs for what Warder calls gerund.
I may be the only one late for the party here. But I finally figured this out.
Study well! 
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not the whole of Asia ā¦ just two people in New Zealand!! (NZ lies east of both Australia and Asia.)
absolutive = Warderās gerund.
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Literally any time works for me except my afternoon (my sleep is extremely flexible anyway) Thereās also @sood
Oops 
ughā¦yes, what I really meant was Asia, NZ, Australia and Europe!
I have two questions about the passage for reading.
tena hi samma tvaƱ ca sannabharam bandha, ahaƱ ca sannabharam bandhissÄmi.
In DPD I can only find bandha either as āropeā in composite or vocative, but not as the verb bind in imperative form, which seems to be what John Kelly brought up in the answer key. Can somebody help understand the use of bandha in this sentence?
And in this sentence:
te yena so janapado yenā aƱƱataram gÄmapadam tenā upasamkamimsu.
When we have two yenas before the tena upasamkamati, this will indicate one going to a place (indicated after the first yena) that is located inside the place indicated by the second yena?
Iām happy with whatever gets decided and will continue the course if possible. Whatever time suits John Kelly and the rest of the group is fine by me.
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ābandhaā would be the 2nd person sing. imperative of the verb bandhati. āYou bindā āyou tie upā.
Do you have a paradigm of the imperative?
As was discussed earlier, if the present stem ends in -a the stem alone can be used.
See G&K III.5 (p. 36).
I donāt quite understand your second question, it seems a sequence of movement, first to a country then a particular village.
Thank you, @stephen . Now that you mentioned I found it on DPD also. Sometimes I get lost in the dictionary.
The second question is on how to understand the structure of that sentence.
te yena so janapado yenā aƱƱataram gÄmapadam tenā upasamkamimsu.
What I usually do is get the meaning and declination of each word:
they(nom) where(instr.) that(nom.) location (nom.) where(instr.) a certain (acc.) village-road(acc.) there (instr.) they approached
My initial thought is that it meant:
they approached that location through a certain village road.
Jhon Kelly has it as:
They went to a certain village street in this district.
If it is a sequence of movements, as you said, would it be something like this?
they approached that location and arrived at a certain village road.
Also, just in general, Iām finding it difficult to work with sentences with many words. Often, they seem like a puzzle that has many different possible ways of arranging. Also, many words are polysemic, often with many very different meanings. Do you have any advice?
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The āyenaā has the sense of ātowardsā or āat which placeā (where)
There are two pieces. -
-they towards (where) that country
-towards (where) a certain / particular village there they approached.
Mr. Kellyās translation reverses the original Pali order but means the same.
The idea is that first they went to a country / region and then proceeded to a specific village and street.
Towards that region, towards that very street in the village they traveled.
(It sounds a bit Dickensian but thatās how I understand it literally. )
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May I ask some questions regarding this sentence in the exercise section?
khÄ«į¹Ä me ÄsavÄ
Q1: Is ÄsavÄ nt nom pl of Äsava?
Q2: Is khÄ«į¹Ä pp nt acc pl of khÄ«į¹a?
Q3: Is that sentence in passive sense?
Q4: Is me 1st instr sg of ahaį¹ and therefore translated as āby meā?
Q5: Are other scenarios valid such as below?
- my (me ā 1st gen sg of ahaį¹)
- from me (mayÄ/me ā 1st abl sg of ahaį¹)
- for me (me ā 1st dat sg of ahaį¹)
In other words, besides a translation of āThe defilements are exhausted by meā, can other translations below also valid?
- My defilements are exhausted
- The defilements are exhausted from me
- The defilements are exhausted for me
I am asking because note #13 of Ven. Brahmali is telling that:
while I can only see instrumental case valid base on analysis from Q1 to Q3
Q6: What is āNCRP I 3.3ā in note #10 of Ven. Brahmali?
Have fun in PNG, Iād love to visit one day!
yes, but in addition note that declined forms in Pali never end with n. Itās always į¹, and final n is a product of sandhi.
Ha ha, yes, I always use āabsolutiveā, itās less confusing.
One trick, chop the end off and search for bandh. This gives you the root, under which you find all the derived forms listed. Crikey, DPD is really good!
Um, I think itās normally masculine not nt., but DPD gives both.
Past participles, as adjectives, are not gendered, rather they agree with the noun. So this is nom plural.
Yes.
No, itās genitive here, āof meā, i.e. āmy defilements have endedā.
Brahmali is technically correctāthe best kind of correct!ābut the sense is definitely genitive. Elsewhere the more explicit form is used.
āan4.36:5.5ā: "Te mayhaį¹ ÄsavÄ khÄ«į¹Ä
āpli-tv-bu-vb-pj4:8.12.2ā: "Sopi evamÄhaāāmayhampi, Ävuso, ÄsavÄ pahÄ«nÄāti
To help distinguish these kinds of cases, bear in mind the āprinciple of least meaningā. If a mere enclitic particle of ambiguous interpretation is used, it is typically because the most obvious sense is the right one. Now, in such a case, it is clear they mean "my defilementsā, not someone elseās, so interpreting me as genitive adds little or no meaning. On the other hand, saying that they are ended āby meā adds an extra meaning, albeit slight. So unless there is reason to assume otherwise, prefer the reading that adds least meaning.
No idea! @Brahmali a little help please!
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Could I say that the statement that the info in this lesson is overwhelming is an understatement?
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It could be Gair & Karunatillakeās New Course in Reading Pali. (G&K). Chapter 1, Section 3.3.
(Which is on p. 8 and concerns the quotation marker (i)ti. )
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Combination of Warderās lesson, Stuartās notes, and Meilandās explanation
Lesson 14 - Notes.pdf (459.7 KB)
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Not me, nearly 30 years after studying it, and still learning new things every day!
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Iāve spent a lot of time, trying to understand the Optative Case (= mood in English) as it feels similar to the subjunctive mood in English, and have found this: Optative Mood: Definition and Examples | StudySmarter
Dear Bhante @sujato, can this explanation be applied to the Pali Optative?
I am having some confusion with thisā¦
So in DPD upÄdÄya and ÄdÄya are listed as gerunds - which it then defines as āverbs ending in ā-ingā describing ongoing actions.ā
DisvÄ, however, is listed as an absolutive.
Are they just referring to the same thing using different terminology? I thought ÄdÄya was an absolutive.
When we did the Pali classes with Bodhinyana we also learnt about āgerundivesā which are future participles. So at the moment I have a gerund soup in my head.
I also have another question which came up when I was looking at the confession formulas that the monks/nuns use:
Passasi ayye? (when addressing a junior nun)
Do you see, Venerable lady?
Passatha ayye? (when addressing a senior nun)
Do youse see, Venerable lady?
Äyatiį¹ ayye saį¹vareyyÄsi. (when addressing a junior nun)
In the future, Venerable lady, you should be restrained.
Äyatiį¹ ayye saį¹vareyyÄtha. (when addressing a senior nun)
In the future, Venerable lady, youse should be restrained.
Why is the plural considered more polite? I had it explained to me that it is less direct to say āyouseā in the plural, so that is why it is used for senior monastics. Is that sense there in how the singular and plural are used in the suttas?
It also seems confusing since ayye is in the singular locative not the plural in both cases.
Sorry for asking a question that is not directly related to this weeks lesson (although the optative is used)!
āpingā @sujato
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Not many questions today (this doesnāt imply that I understand everything well. Au contraireā¦)
Question: puccheyyÄmā ahaį¹ bhante kaƱ cid eva desaį¹
Ajahn Brahmali = May I ask, Venerable Sir, (about) some point?
Would it change the meaning if we place āpuccheyyÄmā at the end of the sentence?
Question: devÄ tamhÄ kÄyÄ cavanti
Ajahn Brahmali: The deities fall from that group.
Can this interpretation be ok? The deities passes away from that group (= they finish their heavenly kamma and are to be reborn in another realm).
Question: yan nÅ«na mayaį¹ kusalaį¹ kareyyÄma
Ajahn Brahmali: What now if we were to do that which is good?
Could we ānotā use the past subjunctive tense of the verb to be, but use the verb to do in the present tense instead? āWhat if we do what is good?ā
Question: I got up from my seat and left.
Ajahn Brahmali: (Ahaį¹) uį¹į¹hÄyāÄsanÄ pakkÄmiį¹.
Can it be a simple sentence like this? ā(Ahaį¹) ÄsanÄ uį¹į¹hahiį¹, pakkÄmiį¹ā
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This question is not about our answers to the questions, but about the sentences (questions) in the exercises themselves.
Itās a question on the word order. (I understand that the word order in Pali is fluid, but still I would like to try to categorise some logical patterns to lessen the likelihood of me getting lostā¦)
khÄ«į¹Ä me ÄsavÄ
Ajahn Brahmali: The outflowings (ÄsavÄ) have been exhausted by me.
Could we have another word order apart from khÄ«į¹Ä me ÄsavÄ?
Similar sentences:
puccheyyÄmā ahaį¹ bhante kaƱ cid eva desaį¹
na dÄnā ime imamhÄ ÄbÄdhÄ vuį¹į¹hahissanti
I believe Mamaį¹ ÄsavÄ khÄ«į¹Ä would work, but would be less emphatic. (Also, the enclitic me seems to be generally preferred over the initial mama(į¹)?)
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