Thread for discussing chapter 14 of Warder for the class on October 31st.
Meeting ID: 869 8997 6290
Passcode: 2023
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Dear Bhante @sujato will try to join next week but will be in PNG and not sure about internet access. I really appreciate you extending the course and for John helping after that so will try to make everything I can!
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Request … is it possible to have the Pali Class during the week-ends when John Kelly starts please? Anytime is OK. With Metta
Pali special characters for Macs
(Yes, I know, why post this just days before the last lesson from Bhante Sujato??? Because there may be one other troglodyte like myself that didnt know) 
Option 1
for ā í ṉ ñ ņ ū ī ḏ … just hold down the “a”, “i” etc keys and various options appear!
Option 2 for more letters (e.g., ṃ)
- Press function key (lower left of keyboard, the one with a globe icon)
- Find characters you want to use (eg the left index has ‘Latin’ with many Pali characters)
- Select the characters one by one and click right “Add to favourites”
Then you can do either of these:
- When typing, whenever you press the function yet again, they appear!
- In word go to Tools then Autocorrect options and set it up using favourites (you can use “.” then “a” for “ā” for example then whenever you type fullstop a space ā appears!)
I am sure everyone knew all this but just in case there are other Amish like me…
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Obscure Grammar Rule Alert!!!
Reviewing previous exercises … may this save you time:
idaṃ vuccati cittan ti vā viññāṇan ti vā
When the final ṃ or n in a word precedes the word ti, those letters change to n.
You won’t find cittan or viññaṇan in the DPD (in order to understand the declension).
I’m sure Bhante or John mentioned this during class! 
Warder makes mention of it but it’s buried in a paragraph.
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Thank you @Hasantha! Also, Ven. @Pasanna shared a Mac solution back on Aug. 21 on the Resources thread. I have found that one the easiest…I wasn’t fully successful when I tested out your options.
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Yes, and vowels are lengthened.
If you put either of those words in the PED U of Chicago search box, auto complete will give the dictionary entry form before you finish typing in the word.
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Hi Stephen, thanks for that extra tip (for what is now an even more obscure grammar rule). You know, I tried using PED U of Chicago for this. I saw cittan in the examples listed under the search but the associated grammar in this particular dictionary is not that intuitive for me. So I’m still trying to figure out the logic they use in that system. Nevertheless, the dictionary was extremely helpful for me to parse dis and dis Sanskrit roots (and thus clear up my confusion, which you also helped me with). So I haven’t given up yet on PED U of Chicago!
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Glad it has been of help.
Most likely due to ease of pronunciation, the value of vowels and nasals lengthen before the end quote marker ‘ti’ (which is really ‘iti’)
Very common- practically in every sentence!
Here is the entry for ‘citta’: (notice the first thing we are told is that it’s a neuter noun)
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Sorry, Indira, but I think it would be too disruptive to the majority of people to change the class day at this late stage. People have become accustomed to Tuesdays, and although it might suit one person to change, a number of other people might be disrupted. Also, Tuesday is the most convenient evening for me.
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This is not so much a grammar rule, Beth, but a rule of sandhi, which in Pāli and Sanskrit stipulates how letters can join together when close together.
The niggahita ṃ will change to whatever nasal corresponds to the consonant group the following consonant belongs to. See page 2 of Warder Introduction to see where the nasals belong.
Thus:
ṃ will change to ṅ before k, kh, g, and gh (gutturals)
ṃ will change to ñ before c, ch, j, and jh (palatals)
ṃ will change to ṇ before ṭ, ṭh, ḍ, and ḍh (cerebrals)
ṃ will change to n before t, th, d, and dh (dentals)
ṃ will change to m before p, ph, b and bh (labials)
A few other examples (among many, many that will crop up in your Pāli adventures):
dutiyaṃ followed by pi = dutiyampi
rupaṃ followed by ca = rupañca
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Thank you Mr. John Kelly… just tried my luck! Often times Deepika or Sumana shares the recordings with me… much merit to them.
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Warder is giving us both the optative and the ablative this week plus introducing samāsanta compounds 
If y’all haven’t started already, I recommend getting a head start this week! It’s kinda a lot!
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Ahhhh…thank you, Sir John! Sandhi and the niggahita ṃ.
As an aside, I was reminded a couple of days ago of the excellent instruction at the beginning of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book 
and this motivates me to study it again.
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Is it possible for the continuing class to go back to starting at 8 pm Sydney time rather than the current 9 pm Sydney time? In New Zealand a 9 pm Sydney start means an 11 pm start here. No worries if it isn’t possible.
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Hello @hoffmann. I strongly sympathize with your awkward plight here. I didn’t know we had people coming in from NZ and, personally, I certainly would be unable to even contemplate starting a class so late at night. However, I have a real problem here, since the class also has three (I think) people zooming in from the US, who currently start the class at 5am or 6am their time (depending on their US time zone), which will change to 4am and 5am when they go off daylight savings time next week.
So, even though I don’t have any problem myself starting an hour earlier - What to do?
As you may know, I plan to commence a new Pāli class early in the new year, starting at 9am Brisbane time on Monday mornings. This would be easier for all American and NZ time zone people.
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Thank you for your very kind reply John. We have managed okay so far. We will carry on, bearing in mind your new course in the new year.
Alison and Hugo
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Question 1:
If the recluse Gotama should come to this assembly we will ask (optative) him this question.
My Answer: Yadi samaṇo Gotamo parisaṁ āgaccheyya, tadā taṁ etaṁ pañhaṁ pucheyyāma.
Ajahn Brahmali: sace samaṇo Gotamo imaṃ parisaṃ āgaccheyya, imaṃ taṃ (him) pañhaṃ puccheyyāma.
Does my answer also work?
Question 2:
I should do meritorious actions
My answer: Ahaṁ kusalāni kammāni kareyyāmi Ajahn Brahmali and John Kelly both have puññāni kareyyaṁ
Is it ok to use kareyyāmi?
Question 3:
You should explain it as it pleases you (te; both verbs optative)
My Answer: Yathā te khame, thathā taṁ byākare
Ajahn Bramali: yathā te khameyya, (tathā) taṃ (it) vyākareyyāsi.
Ajahn Brahmali states that “khameyya, it might please, third person, takes the dative te, you.” But I don’t understand why it is in the third person?
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Does my answer also work?
Yes
Is it ok to use kareyyāmi?
Yes, although kareyyāṃ is probably the more common form. Also, puññāni would likely be more commonly used than kusalāni kammāni.
But I don’t understand why it is in the third person?
It pleases you (3rd pers), not you are pleasing (2nd pers).
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Hello, as one of the three US students in the current class, I am willing to peel off (as we say 
) and join the new class John will be offering. My preference is to stay with the current group of students (and not go back to Lesson 1 as well). That said, I can’t rationalize almost everyone else having to stay up so late for this ongoing class just for the three of us (plus there’s a student in Brazil).
It’s me, @Karuna_Hong and two others. Could the two others identify yourselves and we start a private conversation about this?
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