Bhikkhu Bodhi on Nibbāna

Discussion
282

I believe this is not possible…how can one say that “what was always there, is no longer present in that cessation”… if cessation cannot be known?

Sutta’s also clearly do no speak about the cessation of the world, the cessation of existence, as the end of all perception. It is more about the end of constructing activity, i think.

The sutta’s, such as AN10.7, seem to describe special states of immersion in which this constructing is absent and perceiving is reduced to merely perceiving one perception arise and another cease.
Like one has made a deep dive into the mind and has arrived at a level in which one is beyond the level of aggregation and sees individual perception arising and ceasing.

283

Hi,

Sāriputta said consciousness, perception, and feeling cannot be separated.
So the ceasing of any of these entail the ceasing, even temporarily. of consciousness.
See MN43.

284

What cannot be known in the technical sense is just the realm of nothingness.

MN 36

Then it occurred to me, ‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.’ Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

And even that pursuit of insight is an exercise of the mind which lasts only as long as one has power, merit, and fuel.

SN12.15

“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘right view’. How is right view defined?”

“Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.

But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of non-existence regarding the world. And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of existence regarding the world.

If the realm of nothingness is absolute non-existence and neither nor is somewhere in between, then saññāvedayitanirodha is that same “absolute existence” which the Buddha transcended when he realized the unconditioned.

285

Consciousness need not be equated with the mind nor with pure awareness. In fact consciousness in the technical sense used by the Buddha fell into certain categories.

SN25.3

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness… Nose-consciousness… Tongue-consciousness… Body-consciousness… Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

The eye was differentiated from eye consciousness … the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the intellect was differentiated from intellect-consciousness.

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286

I believe this is not right. “There is nothing” is what is known in this arupa jhana. If one abides in this arupha jhana one always knows this.

287

I asked about the realm with body only, and the answer I got was that from previous mind moment before cessation it continues. Time for the mind doesn’t exist in the cessation, so it doesn’t feel like time had passed.

Also, I suspect that it’s also the fact that there’s still a living body there for those in absorption. Rupa conditions consciousness which conditions back namarupa and it restarts.

Only when all 5 aggregates are dismantled that there’s nothing left to arise.

This is just referring to the fact that non returners can attain to cessation of perception and feeling. And they are reborn in the form realm, which is equal to mind made devas.

I am not sure if you had seen the post I made about 9 levels of nothingness, given by a physicist from philosophy point of view. Anyway, I think it’s clear from how I described it. Nothingness formless realm still has perception, neither perception nor non perception still has that little bit of water left. And cessation of perception and feeling is still impermanent as there’s the living body which makes the mind arise again.

Only when there’s no more possibility for mind to arise again too and no 5 aggregates, that’s the ultimate nothing of parinibbāna.

Cessation of perception and feeling is different from the body only rupa realm as the body only rupa realm still has the underlying defilements which generates new mind for rebirth. And the arahant who died has no more such possibility, and discarded body and mind.

It’s not yet, there’s still perception there.

There’s still the living body, but no mind.

The goal is to dismantle all origin of the world so that it never arise again. World, suffering, taints, basically related to each other. So when all causes for arising is gone, there cannot be further arising.

Here, linked, it seems that I mapped formless nothing to only level 6, and there’s up to 9 levels.

288

How can you “know” nothing?

289

Ok, but not sure what this has to do with the points being discussed.

290

I’ve much enjoyed this back and forth. I am “on the clock” so to speak. And I should be returning to my duties…

I’ll make one further point in defence of “aware” saññāvedayitanirodha versus non-percipient. And then I’ll desist (if I can resist - “desist and resist” as I call it :slight_smile: )

MN 43

“What’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling?”
“When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their faculties have disintegrated. When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear. That’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

Someone who has died, presumably, is someone who will be reborn. Maybe it’s even safe to assume that in between births one is utterly non-percipient. Maybe not.

However, how can it be declared that the faculties are very clear in cessation of perception and feeling?

How can anyone emerge from that attainment and claim that the eye was clear, the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the intellect … the FACULTIES!!!???

How is that possible? What does that even mean for an utterly non-percipient being?

291

Consciousness may certainly cease in Nirodha Samapatti but we know the faculties are clear and we know that intellect-consciousness is a different phenomenon from the “intellect” itself.

Thus “unconscious” Nirodha Samapatti is a bit of a misnomer.

292

All those arupa jhana are refered to as a base, and while one is in it, one perceives this base (MN1)

i see it like this that these bases are never ever absent. But are bases of the mind. Levels, as it were.
Like making a descent into a building and arriving at the most deepest base.
Jhana is like making a conscious descent into the most subtle levels of the mind.
Cessation is the most subtle and deepest base, i believe. One arrives at the nature of the mind.

These bases also can be wrongly conceived as me, mine, myself.

What is refered to here as base means, i believe, that it is never ever sensed as some formation like greed, hate, piti etc. that is coming and going. It is like the sky is the base for clouds to arise in. Likewise with arupa jhana. The base refers to the ground as it were.

One can find a deeper base, an even more subtle ground in arupa jhana, but this is never seen as a formation coming and going. It is only a more refined, even more subtle base.

In the end one arrives at the mind base itself, very subtle, hard to see, empty of perceptions and feeling.
One never becomes mindless but one finally sees the most deep, subtle nature of mind.

i feel, this whole progressive stilling comes down to finding the most subtle base of the mind. The subtle, the very hard to see, the stable, constant, the unconditioned.

But, this is never absent, but during jhana one makes a conscious descent into what is never absent.

All jhana are perceived as peaceful abidings and as such known. Not in a retrospective way but while abiding in it. Also nothingness.

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293

In DN 1, amongst the 7 kinds of annihilationist view, they include all 4 arupa mind as the self.

But clearly missing from that is the cessation of perception and feeling.

If there could be mind left at cessation of perception and feeling, then it could also be clung onto as a self, why didn’t the Buddha listed it in there. Could have easily added that one on.

Clearly then there’s no mind there, no experience, nothing at all to be clung to. Nothing which can be clung to or identified as self.

I read the notes in B. Bodhi’s version and it’s from the commentaries, it says normally sense faculties are impure for having to deal with sense objects, seeing etc are happening, so clear means like a mirror put into a box, not using the faculties, they are clear from sense objects. Compared to dead person, the faculties of dead person already started to decay.

It’s one thing to note the difference between Orthodox Theravada and EBT which clearly contradicts each other, it’s another thing to just simply interpret the sutta to fit in our pet theory and go purposely to contradict the commentaries just for the sake of it.

294

Mmm? The text say “the senses are very clear.” And you expect me to believe that this means, to paraphrase you, “the senses are very clear from sense objects?” That’s a bit of linguistic gymnastics you seem to be taking in favour of not admitting the common sense interpretation of the phrase. :thinking:

Of course, I have no background in the commentaries which I stated already, so I hardly see how I could be contradicting them for the sake of it.

295

Take note that it’s from pāḷi translation, so phrasing need to look back to the pāli.

I managed to find the commentary paragraph which deals with this.

indriyāni vippasannānīti kiriyamayapavattasmiñhi vattamāne bahiddhā ārammaṇesu pasāde ghaṭṭentesu indriyāni kilamantāni upahatāni makkhitāni viya honti, vātādīhi uṭṭhitena rajena catumahāpathe ṭhapitaādāso viya. yathā pana thavikāyaṃ pakkhipitvā mañjūsādīsu ṭhapito ādāso antoyeva virocati, evaṃ nirodhaṃ samāpannassa bhikkhuno antonirodhe pañca pasādā ativirocanti. tena vuttaṃ "indriyāni vippasannānī"ti.

Any pāḷi experts want to translate?

From the original sutta MN43, the relevant phrase is: indriyāni vippasannāni

First word is faculties, nt. pl. second word is clear, calm, settled past participle.

So faculties was clear / settled.

Could have other ways of phrasing it.

From my current pāḷi ability, so far the passage I quoted is more or less agrees with what I reported earlier.

296

I don’t doubt that the faculties have been removed from sense media.

I doubt that that eliminating eye consciousness; ear consciousness; nose consciousness; body consciousness; tongue consciousness; and intellect consciousness necessarily eliminates overall awareness.

“Consciousness” is a technical term with a technical meaning.

My interpretation of “clear faculties” are “faculties which have been purified by the elimination of sense-consciousness” - not, instead, “faculties which are entirely off”

297

Can you find a sutta which lists a 7th consciousness? In the dependent origination definition, it’s quite clear that consciousness is defined to be these 6.

Free from sense consciousness is a good thing we can agree on.

No seeing, etc, knowing happening.

298

The eye exists in relation to eye consciousness. The ear … the nose … the body … the tongue … the intellect.

When intellect consciousness is removed from the intellect, then the intellect remains.

“Intellect” is often translated as mind, with mind being the sixth sense.

The mind can exist independently of mind objects and mind consciousness.

So, a seventh consciousness is not required. As I mentioned, we need only theorize a kind of mind stripped entirely of space, time, and the dimensions of sense perception in order to arrive at a version of Nirodha Samapatti which includes discernment. I’m sure you can imagine such a thing, just as easily as I can imagine an unconscious being without perception and feeling.

Will be falling asleep presently. Thank you again for the discussion. I hope to continue it at a later time.

299

No, that mental activity of grasping does not exist anymore in sannavedayitanirodha. There is not even someone wittnessing this state but mind knows itself here. That is what i have read.
I do not know this state.

What do you think about this? The elimination of eye vinnana is merely the cessation of perception of visual images, colour, shapes etc. The elimination of ear vinnana’s is merely the cessation of perceptions of sounds…merely the cessation of smells, mere the cessation of tactile sensations, merely the cessation of tastes, and the elimination of mental vinnana is merely the cessation of the perception of arisin ideas, thought, plans, intention (or other mental formations).

There is no one who thinks, probably, that awareness ceases if one looses all ability to see, hear, taste and smell. But what about we go step further. And mind looses also the ability to tactile feel and mentally sense. Must awareness now be gone, and why? Why can the mind not be totally empty of perceptions/vinnana/sanna (cannot be seperated (MN43)? It can certainly be empty of visuals, sounds, smells, thought, ideas, tastes, tactile sensations, or not?

In my opinion vinnana refers to solely the arising and ceasing side or aspect or element we notice.
It does not refer to minds base which becomes more visible in the arupa jhana and is asankhata, never seen arising and ceasing, no formation.

300

But we’re not talking about that sampatti… We’re talking about the temporary cessation of perception and feeling, and hence all forms of consciousness. It’s a different state beyond the formless retainment.

301

Can quote your source? I am pretty sure it’s not from the suttas.

How about this for reverse challenge, how does the mind knows it’s there in cessation of perception and feeling? There’s no mind consciousness to know.

Just because I can imagine superman swinging like spiderman (instead of flying) and stealing candy from a baby doesn’t mean it exist.