Brahmavihārā are dukkhā

BTW, I’ll also say this… it is surprising to me that no one has rebutted the contention that the lack of essence is unconditioned. Does that mean it is being acknowledged? I think if it was rebutted I’d be able to rebut those rebuttals, but if it isn’t rebutted then I can’t even try to rebut the rebuttals :joy:

If it is acknowledged that lack of essence is unconditioned in a way that the cessation of a process is not and does not run into the same problems as I pointed out above, then I wonder if anyone else has a similar definition of the unconditioned that does not run into those problems?

If not, then we have two things:

  • Lack of essence of things
  • Dukkha

The first is unconditioned and the second is supposedly literally the All. That is everything other than a lack of essence is literally dukkha, right? Dukkha as a universal quality of conditioned things, right?

:pray:

I’m sorry, I didn’t see it? I promise I wasn’t avoiding it. I’m happy to answer… can you present the question again? :pray:

Not a quality, the ultimate truth of all things. :smiley:

Conventionally, things have appearances. Ultimately, they’re empty, insubstantial, and so dukkha.

This. :smiley: 20 characters.

Dukkha is different from conditioned, right? Are ‘dukkha’ and ‘conditioned’ literally synonyms? Can you substitute ‘conditioned’ for the word ‘dukkha’ in the entire Pali canon and it will make total sense? How about ‘the aggregates’ and ‘dukkha’? Are they literally synonymous? Can I do a word substitution replacing all references to ‘dukkha’ with ‘the aggregates’ and the Pali canon would still make total sense?

If not, then it would appear that you don’t believe ‘the aggregates’ and ‘dukkha’ are literally synonymous, right? So in what way are they “literally” the same then?

I say the are not literally the same anymore than ‘the aggregates’ and ‘burning chaff’ are… so I don’t have to answer that question. But those who maintain that ‘the aggregates’ are literally ‘dukkha’ should describe what that means if not literally synonymous. Fair is fair.

:pray:

It would be interesting to try. I think I could replace all mention of “World”, “Aggregates”, “Kamma” with “Dukkha” and it would make sense. :slight_smile:

Though there would be redundancies, like “Dukkha-dukkha, meeting dukkha, has dukkha contact.” Which is quite true!

I go to the room without fire because I still have a desire to not burn up or to avoid the physical pain that comes with being burnt up. I still have a desire to continue this life of mine that I’m quite attached to and desirous of. In short, I’m not an enlightened being. Far from it.

However, for one who has made an end of desire, craving, dukkha, and so on I don’t think any suffering would be experienced by walking into a room on fire. In fact, I think it possible they could do so joyously if it were to save another sentient being from the suffering they do not wish to experience.

Answered the question. I think it was pretty straightforward. I hope it can be seen I wasn’t trying to avoid your question :wink: :pray:

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A worthy experiment! My guess is if you showed that to someone who had never read the Pali canon before they’d be utterly baffled and no practice could follow. For those who have read it they’d be mentally substituting back ‘the aggregates’ and so on to make sense of it :wink: :pray:

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I have to get going now for other obligations but I’ll check in again when I have the chance. Thank you for the interesting discussion @Dogen and I hope if it hasn’t been helpful at least maybe it was not too full of dukkha :joy: :pray:

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“Bhikkhus, there are these five dukkha subject to clinging. What five? The dukkha aggregate subject to clinging, the dukkha aggregate subject to clinging, the dukkha aggregate subject to clinging, the dukkha dukkhations aggregate subject to clinging, the dukkha aggregate subject to clinging.

“So long as I did not directly know as they really are the five dukkha subject to clinging in four phases, I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when I directly knew all this as it really is, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with … its devas and humans.

“And how, bhikkhus, are there four phases? I directly knew dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. I directly knew dukkha … dukkha … dukkha dukkhations … dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation.

“And what, bhikkhus, is dukkha? The four great elements and the dukkha derived from the four great elements: this is called dukkha. With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of dukkha. With the cessation of nutriment there is the cessation of dukkha. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha; that is, right view … right concentration.

“Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards dukkha, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

“And whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, through revulsion towards dukkha, through its fading away and cessation, are liberated by nonclinging, they are well liberated. Those who are well liberated are consummate ones. As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them.

“And what, bhikkhus, is dukkha? There are these six classes of dukkha: dukkha born of eye-contact, dukkha born of ear-contact, dukkha born of nose-contact, dukkha born of tongue-contact, dukkha born of body-contact, dukkha born of mind-contact. This is called dukkha. With the arising of contact there is the arising of dukkha. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of dukkha. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha; that is, right view … right concentration.

“Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards dukkha, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

“And whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known dukkha … and the way leading to its cessation … As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them.

“And what, bhikkhus, is dukkha? There are these six classes of dukkha: dukkha of dukkhas, dukkha of sounds, dukkha of odours, dukkha of tastes, dukkha of tactile objects, dukkha of mental phenomena. This is called dukkha. With the arising of contact there is the arising of dukkha. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of dukkha. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha; that is, right view … right concentration.

“Whatever ascetics and brahmins … As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them.

“And what, bhikkhus, are dukkha dukkhations? There are these six classes of dukkha: dukkha regarding dukkhas, dukkha regarding sounds, dukkha regarding odours, dukkha regarding tastes, dukkha regarding tactile objects, dukkha regarding mental phenomena. This is called dukkha dukkhations. With the arising of contact there is the arising of dukkha dukkhations. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of dukkha dukkhations. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha dukkhations; that is, right view … right concentration.

“Whatever ascetics and brahmins … … As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them.

“And what, bhikkhus, is dukkha? There are these six classes of dukkha: eye-dukkha, ear-dukkha, nose-dukkha, tongue-dukkha, body-dukkha, mind-dukkha. This is called dukkha. With the arising of name-and-dukkha there is the arising of dukkha. With the cessation of name-and-dukkha there is the cessation of dukkha. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha; that is, right view … right concentration.

“Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards dukkha, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

“And whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, through revulsion towards dukkha, through its fading away and cessation, are liberated by nonclinging, they are well liberated. Those who are well liberated are consummate ones. As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them.” SN22.56 Dukkhafied

This is beautiful.

It was certainly sukha-dukkha, and not dukkha-dukkha! :sweat_smile:

Thanks again for the interesting discussion !

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Now do it with every conditioned thing replaced by ‘dukkha’. That is if a word in the Pali canon is a label for a conditioned thing, then substitute it with dukkha. I think you’re going to find a whole wall of dukkha text. :joy: :pray:

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I’m afraid I might substitute reading that instead of anything else from the canon. :sweat_smile:

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LOL that might be one of the funniest things I’ve seen on this forum. I love it. :rofl: :pray:

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I’m just going to drop this here, hoping it helps some one some what with some thing.

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/bondage.pdf

All Else Is Bondage
NON-VOLITIONAL LIVING
Wei Wu Wei

No. All conditioned things are dukkha, but all dhammas are not self. So there’s some dhammas (Nibbāna) which is not-self but not dukkha.

It sounds to me like you’re using lack of essence as times by 0 just to equate -1=1.

Let’s represent conditioned, saṁsāra as -1, and nibbāna, the unconditioned as 1, you’re just putting times by 0 on both sides to say, they are the same after all

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Where did you get this? Mispelling here. Can report error.

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Hi , burning chaff is just a simile . Whereas aggregates are dukkha is a description . For an ignorant person with a substantialist belief , aggregates are dukkha and are real . For an arahant the substantialist belief ended thus dukkha ended . Therefore , for an arahant there is no question of if aggregates are something this or that .

but we also cannot identify a discontiuum, as indicated by SN12.17;

Suppose that one person does the deed and another experiences the result. Then for one stricken by feeling, suffering is made by another. This statement leans toward annihilationism.
‘Añño karoti añño paṭisaṁvedayatī’ti kho, kassapa, vedanābhitunnassa sato ‘paraṅkataṁ dukkhan’ti iti vadaṁ ucchedaṁ etaṁ pareti.

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Agreed! :slight_smile: We would need to demonstrate that there is a real X and then a real Y in the continuum, which are separate entities, meaning that the prior entity would have to be destroyed.

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