What happens when we sit for meditation is not separate from what is happening at other times. The practice needs to be continuous for the whole process to settle itself. The kind of mind that is present when we sit down, get up and, move around etc. is crucial to the deepening of natural stillness. Samadhi cannot be separated from daily life activities. Though, I suppose you could get lucky - some past kamma arising out of the blue?
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Samadhi is not-self, the idea that someone is experiencing jhana would be a state of confusion.
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Samma samadhi might be, that is samadhi with right view.
It is however possible to attain jhana and still retain a sense of self, though suppressed. Once out of the jhana it would be back. Hence the need for wisdom or panna as an active part of practice, regardless of being in jhana or not truths must be applicable and visible in all situations.
with metta
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Yes, the great blessing of beautiful stillness reveals so much. Finally, something dissolves the sense of self. Only for the duration of this blessed release and then,
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The sense of self dissolves and perhaps the view that there is a self in what we perceive might cease permanently. It’s not a sure solution- better, if possible to see the each of the individual five aggregates arising and passing away in vipassana - that captures everything which we might consider to be the self.
With metta
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The calm and clear stillness in meditation is directly related to the quality of attention in daily life. It is seemless, inseperable. Seeing clearly in daily life is a consequence of being clearly present with what is taking place. I assume seeing clearly in a reaction free state is where new insights arise spontaneously. There is no need to look for insight. There is no one looking at anything. In the seeing just the seeing …
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There are 4 ways of becoming enlightened, 3 of them involve combinations of calm and insight (vipassana) meditations. Furthemore insight requires practice and development according to EBTs (whereas insight in Psychology arises spontaneously without any structured practice).
"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: ‘How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. AN4.94
Wisdom is a broad practice, including going from Wrong view into Right view (samma ditti). The sequentially developed factors of stream entry are:
- Associating with attained spiritual friends
- Listening to the true Dhamma , from them- develops right view
- Wise contemplation, of the Dhamma heard thus -further develops right view
- Practice according to the Dhamma - the anudhamma suttas show that this is seeing the drawbacks of the five aggregates through insight meditation.
SN55.5
There is a path of developing insight which involves Right view, Right mindfulness (of the aggregates, sense bases, etc), Right insight and Right attainment or release.
Without this only good kamma will be performed via the Noble eightfold path. Nibbana requires detachment from all planes that good kamma can potentially cause becoming in.
With metta
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“Bahiya, this is how you should train yourself: Whenever you see a form, simply see; whenever you hear a sound, simply hear; whenever you taste a flavor, simply taste; whenever you feel a sensation, simply feel; whenever a thought arises, let it be simply a thought. Then “you” will not exist; whenever “you” do not exist, you will not be found in this world, another world or in between. That is the end of suffering.” - the Buddha
It may seem hard to imagine how the sense of self can be absent in daily life. Its a ‘truth’ to be known by the wise each for themselves.
Thank you Mat for your insightful Dhamma reflections. I cannot see any contradiction between what you are saying and what I have shared. I guess there may be a different perspective around just ‘seeing’ what arises and actively ‘seeking or looking’ to recognise aspects of what is experienced?
If there is seeking or looking for something specific then the question arises: what is driving this process - this will also be seen in silence and stillness. What is its nature, its also impermanent, unsatisfactory and, not-self.
Trying to see the truth involves movement, looking for something. Natural stillness arises through letting-go (not holding onto anything) - no identification with or, clinging to that which arises and passes away.
We don’t need to look for the 3 characteristics as they are implicit in everything experienced.
Everything experienced ceases ergo there is nothing we can rely on in this world. However, we have much to be grateful for like good friends in the Dhamma and, the ‘natural world’. It provides us with our basic needs and an opportunity to give - as best we can.
With a still and clear mind we will see the 3 characteristics clearly but a mind that is looking for something will only find its own projections. Everything is a Dhamma teaching if we get out of the way.
What is there to look for if ultimately there is nothing to find - just empty phenomena. There is nothing that can be held onto as all experience is inconstant, unstable.
We do seem to need the example and guidance of wise mitta’s. They inspire us and lift our spirits in so many ways and its hard to imagine how we could get along without Sangha.
Waking up is a natural process and we don’t need to over-think it. We feel our way to freedom, if the heart is freed up in some way then it is self-evident and we can see the way we are relating/living at those times when we are travelling light.
Letting-go gives rise to relaxation in faith. We are carried in the stream of the Dhamma and dissolved. Its not difficult to recognise when we are less caught up, when our craving is diminished, when we don’t expect anything and we are open to surprise.
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jewel of the jewel of the jewel
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The paper offers this summary:
In J2 joy “permeates every part of the body, ”but with less physical pleasure.
In J3, the character of joy changes to “deep contentment and serenity.”
J4 is described by “equanimity—a profound peace and stillness.”
The higher-numbered jhanas J5–J8 are characterized by more subtle and profound perceptions.
J5 is called “infinite space,” J6 is “infinite consciousness,” J7 is “nothingness,” and J8 is named “neither perception nor non-perception.”
Each jhana is reported to be deeper and more remote from external stimuli than the last,
It appears to me that the paper is “up” on the scholarship on Janas.
As I recall the EBT’s don’t give that much information either as to practice or state of consciousness that would support a personal conversation in much detail. So, if we stick to only what the EBT’s say it seems to me that the defining criteria would be brief.
The problem might not be with the defining criteria, but with the operational limits on determining when those criteria are actually present in the experimental subject.
The world of Buddhist and other forms of meditation is filled with people claiming high attainments. Since nobody can directly observe the mental experience of another, there is a lot of room for confabulation and self-deception in the self-reports of meditators.
This would readily be applicable to any rapture that arises before a jhana, by the fact that the mind is free from the five hindrances. I suspect most people consider (and mistake) these blissful states of stillness and peace for jhana.
This statement about the formless realms are too non-specific, and could be pointing to any meditative experience, and not just jhana.
Again this is too non specific. Any meditative experience gets deeper progressively and could be mistaken for jhana.
The EBTs do have a defining criteria- the existence of a specific state of mind called jhana. That is, it has a start, a duration and an ending. The start is observable and identifiable as the point in which the jhana starts. There is no other sudden start + an event which leads to a change of the state of mind such as this, in deepening of the mind during (samatha) meditation. Whats more there should further step-wise (ie sudden) climbing into progressively higher jhana, as noted in the progressive numbering system of the fine-material samadhi attainments in the EBTs. If the fourth jhana exceptionally purified the breath stops transiently, as per the EBTs.
As far the change from fine-material into immaterial attainments go the inward focus changes to an outward (but not as in outward towards the five senses) focus and it becomes impossible to focus on the body. It becomes like the way focus is when spreading loving-kindness limitlessly, and it is fixed. This focus doesn’t arise intentionally, but rather arises naturally with the attainment. Again, as before there is step-wise progression of these attainments. Also its not possible to go beyond the eight jhana for a normal person who isn’t a non-returner, and also there isn’t 5 material jhanas regardless of what the abhidhamma says.
I can understand why @sujato said what he said- it possible to use the ambivalent portions of the EBTs and mistake them for Jhanas and as he has instructed others in attaining jhana, proper identification is only possible through personal discussion. If a single person has identified jhana in himself and then goes on to do fMRI to see the neural correlates of what he identified, it still doesn’t mean he has gone into jhana.
I think a lot of careful research and referencing needs to go into this type of research, before broad validation of whatever the findings are.
with metta
Jhana lead’s to endless debates, so i hope I never get any …
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Please, what are the EBTs?
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Early Buddhist Texts.
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Duh! ty.
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The bloke had his meditation recorded by fMRI. Easy enough to compare and check which regions of the brain are up and down regulated while in meditation against some real Theravada monks who have attained to that level of practice if they would only allow the researcher’s to take the fMRI’s of them while meditating and entering the jhana’s.
The only monks that I am aware of who have ever had fMRI’s done of their brains while at rest and in meditation are all Tibetan monks. And the results are very, very impressive - especially compared to the brains of non meditators.
Maybe it’s about time Theravada monks stepped up to the plate and made a contribution? From results of previous studies done on Mahayana monks, I am pretty sure the results would create a whole lot more interest in Theravada amongst westerners.
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I think this is a worthwhile endeavour- a bit like the Buddha going on record about Nibbana- this exits- and now it cannot be ignored, or at least lost (well, not easily…). However the vinaya becomes an impediment due to its rules against people revealing their special abilities and attainments. However I think this is only a problem if the person meditating is identifiable. If the data is properly anonymised then we might have a good case for doing this kind of research, for the sake of propagating the Dhamma!
It will also help set up a good standard for research in this area which will continue regardless in other quarters.
with metta.
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Hi Mat,
I think it is a worthwhile endeavour too. Normally all data for any study is anonymised. Although having said that, a French Mahayana monk Mathieu Ricard who was a scientist before ordaining has self identified as the monk who is the ‘happiest man in the world’ as it was put by the media after fMRI’s of his brain showed very high levels of neuronal activity associated with pleasure. But that was his own choice to talk to the media about it.
So while I am no expert on the vinaya I don’t necessarily believe that taking fMRI recordings of someone’s brain activity while they are meditating is necessarily showing off or revealing any special abilities or attainments. They don’t have to claim to be a stream enterer or anything like that to do it, all they really need is the necessary discipline to be able to focus and meditate while lying very still within a MRI machine. This article from the BBC in 2011 gives a fair indication of what happens in the lab when they do it.
cheers
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The monastics could do there own in-house research if they got hold of a few gadgets. They could publish their results here?
nun a. results
monk b. results
etc.
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