Buddhadasa vs Hillside interpretation

@Thito

Another sutta that illustrates an inverted order that must be “untwisted” is AN 4.49:

“Bhikkhus, there are these four inversions of perception, inversions of mind, and inversions of view. What four? (1) The inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes the impermanent to be permanent; (2) the inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is suffering to be pleasurable; (3) the inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is non-self to be self; (4) the inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is unattractive to be attractive. These are the four inversions of perception, mind, and view.

“There are, bhikkhus, these four non-inversions of perception, non-inversions of mind, and non-inversions of view. What four? (1) The non-inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes the impermanent to be impermanent; (2) the non-inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is suffering to be suffering (3) the non-inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is non-self to be non-self; (4) the non-inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is unattractive to be unattractive. These are the four non-inversions of perception, mind, and view.”

Perceiving permanence in the impermanent,
perceiving pleasure in what is suffering,
perceiving a self in what is non-self,
and perceiving attractiveness in what is unattractive,
beings resort to wrong views,
their minds deranged, their perception twisted.

Such people are bound by the yoke of Māra,
and do not reach security from bondage.
Beings continue in saṃsāra,
going to birth and death.

But when the Buddhas arise in the world,
sending forth a brilliant light,
they reveal this Dhamma that leads
to the stilling of suffering.

Having heard it, wise people
have regained their sanity.
They have seen the impermanent as impermanent
and what is suffering as suffering.

They have seen what is non-self
as non-self and the unattractive as unattractive.
By the acquisition of right view,
they have overcome all suffering. ”

With perception, mind and view inverted/perverted, the wrong things are most prominent. So, it is not to say that permanence, pleasure, self and attractive are simply “not there”, as much as they are not more fundamental than impermanence, suffering, not-self and unattractive. (See AN 7.49)

Drawing out the more fundamental (more true) counterpoint is the only way to set it rightly. For one immersed in sensuality/wrong view, those truths are being ignored. They are not as influential as those that twist the mind. Drawing them out not only requires virtue and restraint, but also requires consistent remembering that they endure there. The mind must become “accustomed” (Bodhi) to these rightly ordered perceptions. Again, it seems the phrase “peripheral awareness” was one of convenience to describe this principle.

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Yes, in one of their recent videos they speak about balancing the scales. For a long time I thought they meant that the background becomes the “truth” but then understood what they said when then you’re just making the old background the new foreground.

So instead it’s about balancing the scales, that way you don’t reject the gratification and instead see the whole picture by including the drawbacks, in a balanced perception, which should be enough to get the ball of dispassion rolling at the same moment craving for sensuality is present and right in front of you.

As I understand it, Improper attention ignores the drawbacks and favours gratification, thus creating a distorted perverted perception.

I believe this is the video where they talk about balancing the scales, I thought it was pretty insightful https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jsmfGXInJc

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Yes, it is a balance to set up the right order amid the inversion as far as I understand it. Though there is no use denying the wrong order to do so. It is established and it needs to be worn away. It is one thing to accept the possibility of the right order, but it is a further step to go about setting it rightly. I think “beauty” is one of the easier examples to contemplate, and AN 7.49 is a real good description of this. It isn’t that beauty doesn’t exist, it is just that ugly is more significant and practically useful in terms of development. It is the aspect that can undermine lust and lead to that necessary dispassion.

Again, this knowledge is not a priority for one without virtue and sense restraint - without the goal of Dhamma practice - and is not easily taken seriously. Obviously everyone knows they are going to die, but not everyone is impacted as deeply. AN 5.48 is another good one on the subject. The point is that this knowledge is off to the side, or more accurately, sitting within, when the inversion is in place and perceptions are not developed.

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My impression from that sutta is that when the Puthujjana reflects on the exact same line of thought as an Ariyan he chooses to ignore the topic and the dispassionate outcome whereas the Ariyan sees the dispassionate outcome as a reason for contemplation to happen.

E.g. “If I think about this, I won’t get work done”, both groups have this reasoning, the difference is the Ariyan sees that as a good thing so he does contemplate the subject, and the Puthujjana sees that as a bad thing so he ignores the subject, because the Puthujjana wants to get more of pleasure and get rid of discomfort/pain whereas the Ariyan will take on more discomfort if it means more dispassion.

That’s how I interpret that passage: same thoughts, different motivations. I guess the Ariyan’s motivation is rooted in seeing the whole mass of suffering caused by craving and thus desires dispassion, whereas the Puthujjana is ignorant of the four noble truths and doesn’t see anything wrong with craving and passion.

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Unlikely. MN 61 says:

So you should train like this: ‘I will not tell a lie, even for a joke.’

MN 26 says:

This teaching is not easily understood

:surfing_man:

These ideas sound like American McMindfulness, where there is the self-suggested hallucination that insight (vipassana) is occurring while simultaneously drowning in defilements. AN 4.49 says:

They have seen what is non-self
as non-self and the unattractive as unattractive.
By the acquisition of right view,
they have overcome all suffering. ”

AN 4.49 does not say:

They have seen what is self as non-self
and the attractive as unattractive.

In other words, the ‘self’ & the ‘not-self’ are not discerned simultaneously.

Mindfulness remembers & brings to mind learned past knowledge. Mindfulness does not directly “see” the unrevealed/unseen truth.

I think the onus falls upon the supporters of Hillside to substantiate their ideas about the role of mindfulness via sutta quotes.

The above is a strange idea. Is there a sutta to support this idea?

It seems the notion of STREAM-ENTRY means the mind INCLINES towards Nibbana therefore there is no “resistance” requiring becoming “accustomed”. :slightly_smiling_face:

Personally, the above attempted connection between the unwholesome & the wholesome seems tenuous. To reiterate, from my reading of Hillside, the impression is:

  1. There is mind that discerns
  2. There are objects discerned.

Hillside said:

Mindfulness done correctly is when the mind is anchored in something. That something must be a thing that is not directly attended to, but instead, has to be a reference point to the attended thing (hence we call it “anchor”). If a thing is not directly attended to but there, we call that thing to be a “background”. It’s a background to a thing we attend (which makes that thing a “foreground”). This is the basic principle of mindfulness, on which we can expand here below.

Now, the above is papanca to me. However, this attempted principle is explained by the suttas with the following example from AN 9.36:

There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: ‘This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.’

AN 9.36

If the above is not understood, SN 48.9 says:

A noble disciple, relying on letting go, gains immersion, gains unification of mind.

SN 48.9

If the above is not understood, returning to topic, Bhikkhu Buddhadasa said:

As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn’t the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to ‘I’ and ‘mine’ can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa - Heart-Wood from the Bodhi Tree

While the papanca of Hillside is difficult to follow, my impression is, per the topic, the interpretation of Hillside is the opposite of Buddhadasa and the opposite of the suttas.

Buddhadasa & the suttas say:

  • The primary meditation object is non-attachment.
  • The secondary meditation object is body, factors of jhana, etc.

To repeat, Hillside said:

Mindfulness done correctly is when the mind is anchored in something.

Buddhadasa reply: Yes, the mind is anchored in non-attachment, per AN 9.36 & SN 48.9.

That something must be a thing that is not directly attended to

Buddhadasa disagrees. Buddhadasa says: “That something/non-attachment must be a thing that is directly attended to”, per SN 47.20, for example.

but instead, has to be a reference point to the attended thing (hence we call it “anchor”).

The above idea of a “reference point” seems unrelated to what must be directly attended to. The impression is Hillside here have been influenced by the idiosyncratic idea of “Frames of Reference” concocted by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

If a thing is not directly attended to but there, we call that thing to be a “background”.

As previously said, the above is difficult for me to follow. But according to both Buddhadasa and the Suttas, non-attachment is the “primary object” and body, feelings, citta & realities are the “background”.

It’s a background to a thing we attend (which makes that thing a “foreground”).

The thing we attend to, according to Buddhadasa and the Suttas, is non-attachment, as stated in MN 10, SN 48.9 and AN 9.36.

The thing Hillside is saying we attend to remains unclear to me.

This is the basic principle of mindfulness, on which we can expand here below.

Buddhadasa said the basic principle of mindfulness is to bring wisdom to a specific situation; this specific wisdom for the situation being “sampajanna”. This sati-sampajjana, per the Suttas (MN 117), is a “support” for the development of samadhi & the direct seeing of Right Knowledge. The role of mindfulness is not to convince/brainwash the mind things are not-self. The perception of not-self is a direct perception. :buddha: Thus MN 149 says:

When the noble eightfold path is developed… these two qualities proceed in conjunction: serenity and discernment (samatho ca vipassanā ca)

MN 149

MN 117 says:

Right effort gives rise to right mindfulness. Right mindfulness gives rise to right immersion. Right immersion gives rise to right knowledge. Right knowledge gives rise to right freedom.

MN 117 does not say:

Right effort gives rise to right mindfulness. Right mindfulness gives rise to right knowledge.

AN 11.2 says:

It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi.

AN 11.2 does not say:

It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in mindfulness.

AN 10.61 says:

In the same way, when the factor of associating with good people :innocent: :star_struck: is fulfilled, it fulfills the factor of listening to the true teaching. When the factor of listening to the true teaching is fulfilled, it fulfills the factor of faith … proper attention … mindfulness and situational awareness … sense restraint …the three kinds of good conduct … the four kinds of mindfulness meditation … the seven awakening factors. When the seven awakening factors are fulfilled, they fulfill knowledge and freedom.

AN 10.61 does not say what Hillside seems to be saying, namely:

In the same way, when the factor of associating with dog-patting :dog2: :poodle: people is fulfilled, it fulfills the factor of listening to the idiosyncratic Satre Nietzsche :nerd_face: teaching. When the factor of listening to the idiosyncratic teaching is fulfilled, it fulfills the factor of faith … mindfulness and situational awareness … sense restraint …the three kinds of good conduct … the four kinds of mindfulness meditation … proper attention (yoniso manasikara)… the seven awakening factors. When the seven awakening factors are fulfilled, they fulfill knowledge and freedom.

As I previously, my impression is yoniso manasikara is merely a preliminary practice in the Suttas, in AN 10.61 and why SN 45.50–55 calls it “the dawn” that is the “forerunner” of the Eightfold Path. :buddha:

I am replying to what has been posted on this topic.

The Suttas quotes are not shooting in the dark. Not only have the Suttas refuted Hillside but the difference between Hillside & Buddhadasa seem to have been clearly established.

I think this topic was summed up by the quotes below:

I think this topic here How to understand SN 48.42? is related to this topic about Hillside. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’m a huge fan of both as well and their phenomena-logical existential approach to Dhamma can you recommend any other teachers are similar?

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The only other monk who is similar to Buddhadasa and Hillside that I can think of is Ven. Punnaji, imho this is his best video of all his videos, the audio quality isn’t great but the dhamma content is superb Bhante Punnaji - A gradual process of awakening - anupubba patipada - YouTube

I actually downloaded that video and saved it to my Google drive in case it ever goes down, I recommend doing the same.

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Ok cool checking it out now

I fail to understand how people can be dismissive of Hillside and NN teachings. When you take the time to really get it instead of coming with a bias thinking it has to be wrong we can see how it perfectly fits with the sutta teachings. Yes it takes some time to get accustomed to it but once you implement it everything falls into place. I feel anyone would benefit from giving some time with an inquisitive mind.

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Not just that. What Ajahn Nyanamoli has been talking about for the better part of a decade is not “based” off the work of Ven. Nanavira. Anyone who’s been listening would know what the relationship actually is between the former and the latter.

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Popular? These writings/talks aren’t popular. The entire orthodoxy is behind you, so there’s no use playing the Prometheus card. What’s popular is hastily nitpicking works that haven’t been thoroughly understood, and then congratulating yourself about it.

The reason I highlighted that first comment is because Ajahn Nyanamoli’s talks and writings are strikingly different from Ven. Nanavira and it is misleading to say they are “based” off of them. Do you have any idea why? What is thoroughly emphasized in the Hillside YouTube talks that Ven. Nanavira opted to mostly exclude from his Notes? It was not absent in his letters, but it is far less emphasized in the Notes. If you can answer that in a single sentence I’ll address your post above. If you can’t…you’ve shown your cards.

Ignore my posts? Never talk to me again? What are you 17 years old? My goodness, dude…

if you want to see how “creative” NV is in his interprerations then just look at how he explains the questions of king milinda.

He says that to make sense of the dialog one must assert what is not in the text, namely that the Nagasena must have been pointing at certain things as he was speaking to make a certain point which can only be made if one asserts that there is some pointing going on. So i day that he did not understand the text and to him it made sense only in a certain context which is not evident from the text itself.

He also disagrees with the conjoinment of kamma, sankhara and cetana.

Intention[cetana], I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. [AN 6.63]

"And what are fabrications [sankharā]? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications. Sattatthana Sutta: Seven Bases

As i see it, he argues unsuccessfully against it.

Now the traditional interpretation says that sankhārā in the paticcasamuppāda context are kamma, being cetanā. Are we therefore obliged to understand in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling, respectively, as bodily, verbal, and mental kamma (or cetanā)? Is my present existence the result of my breathing in the preceding existence? Is thinking-&-pondering verbal action? Must we regard perception and feeling as intention, when the Suttas distinguish between them (Phuttho bhikkhave vedeti, phuttho ceteti, phuttho sañjānāti… (‘Contacted, monks, one feels; contacted, one intends; contacted, one perceives;…’) [Salāyatana Samy. ix,10 <S.iv,68>])? Certainly, sankhārā may, upon occasion, be cetanā (e.g. Khandha Samy. vi,4 <S.iii,60>[3]); but this is by no means always so. The Cūlavedallasutta tells us clearly in what sense in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling, are sankhārā (i.e. in that body, speech, and mind [citta], are intimately connected with them, and do not occur without them); and it would do violence to the Sutta to interpret sankhārā here as cetanā. -Notes on Dhamma , A note on Paticcasamuppada

It is always so. For it is not possible to separate kamma, cetana and sankhara. For what one does, that one intends, intention is an act, and what is intended is also willed & fabricated, both formerly & now.

Now are the in & out breaths intended? If yes then they are inacted and in that also fabricated.

Why are you talking about Nanavira when the post is about Hillside ??


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Are they not in alignment as to their interpretation of this?

Those pictures are funny
‘The sutta do not provide a consistent network of definitions’ :rofl:

Not necessarily no.
Indeed suttas do not all the time provide a consistent network of definition. That’s in part why the abhidhamma was born and that’s why you have a lot of different abhidhamma and commentaries on those that more often than not don’t agree with each other. That’s why the study of definitions and together with commentaries was an essential part of the buddhist curriculum in India, and still is in tibetan monasteries. And that’s why you sometimes find people who build a belief system or support meditation techniques on dubious interpretations of one word or one sutta without taking into account the rest of the literature. The second message from Bhikkhu Anigha gives you a much better answer than mine on this fact as english is not my native language.

Who told you this?

How many arahants did this produce? You don’t know. Nobody knows. Is there even one? You couldn’t state this as a fact.

So what good is this appeal to authority & tradition?

in the course of the future there will be monks who won’t listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won’t lend ear, won’t set their hearts on knowing them, won’t regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering. Ani Sutta: The Peg

These teachings however produced at least 1250 arahants and so i cross reference everything with the sutta and if it’s not there and is not inferrable then it is dismissed as counterfeit dhamma.

When beings are degenerating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, there are more training rules and yet fewer monks established in final gnosis. There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

We are very late to the party, living in times of counterfeit dhamma, when the rules are many and attainments are few. Have to be special to want to learn the commentary and the works of disciples like Nanavira & Nanamoli.

20 years of work as a translator and study of buddhism. But I shouldn’t even have to mention that as any serious study of buddhism would naturally bring this knowledge.
As the second part of your answer is off topic I don’t know if any answer will be good to you. This appeal is not to authority or tradition but to history and religious studies as I was trying to explain that the problem of “network of definitions” is not something trivial or imaginary like your emoji seemed to imply. I hope this discussion can continue, if it has to, on good faith otherwise it will be a waste of both our time.

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Being passionate is a very good thing on the path of buddhism and I respect that but you way of arguing is clearly antagonistic and that’s why some of your posts are now flagged. I wish you luck and joy in all your future endeavours. I won’t answer anymore as this conversation is over for me but just keep in the corner of your mind the existence of HH, you might find at some point that their understanding of suttas is as close as it gets to EBT as they don’t need to contort or bend anything to make it fit with ones bias. Best.

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To dismiss such teaching is perhaps too strong phrase, but there are considerable doubts how much of the teaching of HH is in agreement with Suttas.

Here from another forum, quite eloquent user says in the topic about so called right endurance:

Just to emphasise: there’s a group of practitioners out there, even monks, who hold the view that the Buddha’s advice to destroy unskilful thoughts immediately is wrong practice. “Puthujjana” practice.

They say you have to"endure" arisen unskilful qualities. The Buddha however says quite literally that they are not to be endured “nādhivāseti” but to be eliminated - byantikaroti - as quickly as possible. Understanding how to stop them is part of his instruction - for him, learning to suppress, fight them and make them end is part and parcel of understanding them.

A fighter who doesn’t know how to floor his opponent lacks the facet of understanding most crucial to his success.