Buddhadasa vs Hillside interpretation

Discussion
81

Then i wonder what you think of this:

If one starts to see life as terror and horror, i feel that is a quit normal reaction upon awakening to the reality of loss, sickness, death, having to bear decay etc. But i feel it is not correct/honest to see this horror and terror as some objective rating. No one must just be honest and sincere, i feel, and admit that one has extreme strong passions towards life, and wants to rule, be in control, be God-like.

First Noble Truth does not mention terror and horror. The terror and horror of the prospect to become sick, decay, die was probably one aspect of what Buddha motivated to seek an escape, but another aspect was his faith that one can be at ease in the world of sickness, decay, death, symbolised by the monk at ease.

No, one cannot seperate the perception of horror and terror from being very passionate towards sickness, decay, death and life in general and extreme desire to rule. Terror and horror is the language and way of experience of an extreme passionate mind. A mind that wants to rule. Extreme revulsion, anger, hate, disappointment is the result.

One must just be honest about this, i feel. To sell the horror and terror perception as some objective rating of life is not sincere. Exactly here we have to take responsibility and admit that our strong passions, our ingrained tendencies, our anger, is the problem.

If this makes me no buddhist, so be it. I feel the whole Path is about this kind of honesty.

82

Namo Buddhaya!

Here

And what is perception of the impermanence of all conditions? It’s when a mendicant is horrified, repelled, and disgusted with all conditions. This is called the perception of the impermanence of all conditions.SuttaCentral

One develops this by giving frequent attention as to make it an inclination of mind to see things this way.

Even if one has come to an agreement, is still a lot of work establishing this perception, and if one has not come to an agreement then it is even more so important to ponder this.

83

I understand that one can develop perceptions that lead to dispassion in a forced way. I personally do not really like this, because i feel they are untruthful. I have no faith in them.

If my dispassion must lean on my perception or even knowledge that the body is ugly, sorry, i feel that is not serious. Ofcourse i understand that one can control passions with such perceptions, but if one really starts to talk about food, body, the world as being repulsive, no delight, abhorrant etc. i feel one is lost in perception. Now perception uses you. You are now totally ruled and in the grip of perception.
And confuse this with seeing things as they are.

As a means to deal with excessive lust, excessive cravings, oke, but real dispassion arises from seeing things as they really are, meaning, without signs. No signs of beauty or ugly, no sign of atta nor anatta. No sign of anicca nor nicca. No sign of dukkha nor sukha. Now one sees things as they really are. One does never see a painful feeling as it really is (as only a painful feeling) if one sees that feeling as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Those are merely conceiving which the Buddha uses to guide people to a point they abandon any conceiving things (MN1). Anicca, dukkha and anatta are always in the domain of conceivings.

84

I’ll tell you in brief my take on morality in my own words & secularly. From this one can figure out what one should & shouldn’t be doing.

I’ve studied many games and in all those games the goal is to win.

To win one must do something valuable to get value which is the win.

Doing valuable things is strategy. The most valuable strategies are the most effective strategies, the most good strategies.

In multiplayer games, there are equilibriums:
In the game rock paper scissors the game is in a game theory optimal equilibrium when everyone mixes it up perfectly.

Rock = ⅓%
Paper = ⅓%
Scissors = ⅓%

A perfectly random strategy is the gto strategy here.

Notice this strategy is

  • Unexploitable - The enemies can’t take advantage for not finding an opening. There is no fear.
  • Unexploitative - It is completely without any greed or anger for one is not trying to punish anyone’s mistakes or trying to win more than one’s fair share.
  • It is without delusion - For It is based on true understanding of game theory & It’s mechanics.

Therefore it is very important to get one’s values & win conditions clear as clear can be.

My win condition is a not coming into play of perceived existence and having the taints be removed by attaining that, this is my highest value, and to do this i need to be repelled by all things tied to perceived existence in following the gto path/strategy, the noble 8 fold path.

I don’t think that me and you have the same values & win conditions and so our strategies differ

85

I think game theory is very interesting and i wish people would learn about it more but i won’t derail this thread further. So Green, maybe we shouldn’t discuss how you feel here either.

86

Well, i do not believe Nibbana can and has to be won. I reject that approach and way of thinking.
I feel this is very bad idea of the Path.

By the way, also the sutta’s show that one can become a victim of developing perceptions in such a way that one really starts to see them as true, real, factual. Apparantly monks committed suicide after they developed the perception of the repulsiveness of the body.
It is really a problem when one does not see this as merely a skill, a technique. Such perceptions are not about what is true.

87

Basically my strategies are gto and have nothing to do with cultivating aversion as you put it. It is about undetstanding the game & not getting distracted from executing the right play.

If I play rock it is not because i have disdain for scissors but because i think it is the right strat.

Has nothing to do with the emotion aversion.

So my being horrified with existence is like that, it is entirely a value judgement.

I have asserted my win-condition and try to create an opening for it, otherwise I feel equanimous and entirely certain in that the cessation of the bad in dependence on the unconstructed is good & should be brought about; whereas the constructed is disagreeable, not good, dukkha, shouldn’t be, is not right & is immoral, it is then immoral to do what begets more of the not good, but i don’t feel any particular emotion towards the constructed lest due to lapses of concentration which make me deviate from gto due to greed, anger, & delusion coming into play.

88

It’s not about inducing aversion, it’s about seeing the things you desire and crave for what they are - it’s about what you really see, about distinguishing the mental image of the thing from the actual perceptions and nature of that thing.

For example. What do you see when you look at an attractive body, and what exactly makes it desirable? Because what you see when you look at the body is just ‘head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach, excrement, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine’. Is this what you really see and desire?

89

Oke, I personally do not believe that being horrified with existence is not some emotional attitude, very passionate. I believe this is an example of how perceptions that often get attention become true for oneself, and at that moment are experienced as a not emotional judgement anymore.

90

Most people don’t think like I do and it was something i learned & developed, very slowly & very painfully. I had to as it was my career and it broke me in many ways because i had to come to terms with my greed, anger & delusion in studying game theory equilibriums & exploits. I spent an entirely unhealthy amount of time training to think like this even way before learning buddhism.

91

Thanks Notez. I am gonna stop for some time…again?..yes again.

I notice buddhism and me are not a very good match.
I must admit, and maybe also to myself, that for me, buddhism never feels fully safe.
That is ofcourse something subjective.
It is like my heart keeps doubting.

Maybe i am more like a God seeker. Seeking the One.
I like the christian mystics and some day i like to join a community of carmelites.
At least, that is on my mind now for some time.
Maybe this is more close to my heart and maybe i must try that some time.

I am still a seeker in this.
I do not doubt the direction of detachment. That not at all.
But it do not think that the Dhamma can guide me to there.
I think i need the merci of God.
It does not work for me that I see this as my taks. My effort. My goal. My strive.

I have never felt this as my life. Also now i am not young anymore.
Maybe that is a disorder but that is how it is.
I have seen beautiful things, spiritually, i feel, but not as a result of my effort.
Always as a gift.
I feel it is all a deep mystery.

It seems like i am not destined to be my own saviour.
And if i take on this task i only become more imprisoned.
Maybe this all sounds strange, but this is how it is for me.

It is like my heart does not even accept i take on this task.

Wish you well.

1 Like
92

My advice is to find the smartest person available to you and visit in person to observe them over time, and if you feel like they are not some crazy person or a scammer then take it on faith and do as they say.

I think it might be easier to trust a person who inspires confidence rather than a text which one does not understand/holds in contempt. It is important to admit it if you have a disliking of the texts because it completely blocks understanding.

You can do something about this on your own too but you should make a new thread to discuss it.

93

Suppose a person is all great but has only one big problem with allergy. He later finds out what is the allergen, being one of the foods he likes.

With that he would change the value judgement of the food allergen.

It has nothing to do with aversion but knowledge & values as to what is agreeable & disagreeable.

He really is horrified of the food now but it is not because he hates the food, he merely judges it as disageable and wants none of it.

94

Sharing a comment I just made on another thread because it is highly relevant here as well.

95

interesting - was your translation work in pali?

96

Nope, I work as a tibetan translator.

97

I wholeheartedly support all kinds of activity that can shake the yogis up on their feet, still meditating :pray:

In this punch-and-judy society, it’s needed more punch and fearlessness from ordinary people to match up with the constant carpet bombing and fear/trauma-based propaganda that forces the mind into disastrous timelines. The war is all over the place

Hillside is one, another is Clear Mountain, I just mentioned it