Buddhists and Jains Getting Coffee

The Watercooler
1

Something interesting happened today that I want to share. This is the only place in my world that I can share this , so The Watercooler is stuck with my story, much like being stuck at someone’s home and being forced to watch 8mm movies of their vacation to Niagara Falls.

I was in an office building and said hello to Dinesh, who I see time to time and always make a point to say hello to. We were, naturally discussing the weather now in India, and Dinesh asked me about Thailand. So, I told him that I had been a temp samanera some years ago, and am in slow motion training to eventually ordain again. The point of my story is that he stopped and came over to me, and very cautiously and quietly explained that he is a Jain, and a Jain teacher, and that he wishes to retire to ordain as a Jain monk, as he described it.

He described that as a devout Jain, one’s life is divided into four periods. The first 25 years is to gain or take wisdom as a young person into adulthood. The next 25 is is to enjoy the sense pleasures of life; work, family, etc. The third period, after the taking and enjoying, is to give back to community (live your life giving back what is gained), and finally, as he said, in the last stage of life one is alone as one began life, and finishes life as a monastic. He and I agreed that this is a good and proper life.

I mention this only as I find myself most days in a kind of contented isolation. My beloved son and daughter whom I raised as a single parent, I am pleased now thrive as young adults in another city. I do not live near Theravada Buddhists, and the teachers I trust and respect live a thousand or many more miles away . Yet today, I met my Jain comrade-in-arms, and look to have more opportunities to learn from each other, and appreciate this joint sensibility of a life focused on ethical and renunciant goals.

…and, thanks to Sutta Central, and Vens. Sujato and Brahmali (Authenticity of the EBTs) I was able to initiate talk with him about Jains, Mahavira, and the life of the Buddha, the Jains, and Brahmins, and he was very happy (maybe shocked) that I knew a bit of this history.

18 Likes
2

Thanks so much, that’s a wonderful story. People really do amaze you!

I wonder whether you discussed the whole “tearing hair out by the roots and torment yourself until you starve to death” thing. These are all parts of Jain practice, but I really don’t know how widespread they are, or how they think about them.

3 Likes
3

LoL! Bhante, in the back of my mind during our conversation, I’m thinking “now what about that starving yourself to death bit?” but I thought I’d save that for when we get to know each other better. He has a rather stylish haircut now…I’ll report back to The Watercooler once I can break the ice on the hair snatching and pesky ritual starving issues.

2 Likes
4

Great story. I am looking forward to future interfaith dialogues with fellow monastics. Like this one held every four years at a Trappest monastery in kentucky:

Monastic Interreligious Dialogue

Come with me @anagarika !

I especially would like to hang out with the first funny happy monks I ever knew(well before the DL & Ajahn Brahm), growing up as a Catholic kid, Franciscans!

3 Likes
5

Thanks for sharing this.

Interesting to hear their fourfold division of life. I can recall finding in the suttas here and there an allusion to a similar understanding: that the spiritual life is to be pursued after one is old. And it seems to me this was something the Buddha did not endorse.

1 Like
6

It’s related to a well-known system found in the Hindu dharmasastras, the four asramas, I believe it is. This was not yet current in the time of the Buddha, and so far as I know has never been adopted in Buddhist culture.

It seems that the renunciant ideal was grafted on to Brahmanism, starting maybe a couple of centuries before the Buddha. By the time of the Buddha it was still an uncomfortable match, as evidenced by the mocking of the Buddha as a “baldie”. Later Hindu texts developed various methods to synthesize these originally disparate elements. One means was the idea that each of us has their own dharma as determined by our past lives. Another was the four stages of life.

In this instance, it seems the idea was adopted by the Jains. But it may be more complicated than that: for all I know, the Jains might have come up with the idea, and the Hindus took it from them.

4 Likes
7

Road trip! Sounds good, Ven. Jayantha. I’ll be an anagarika for some time, so I’ll be ready to do the driving!

Interesting how many of us were raised Roman Catholic. The only positive thing that I can think of at the moment about my time as a Catholic was late in the game discovering the poetic Fr. Thomas Merton a bit. Oh, the other positive was getting out of middle school during the week to do a funeral as an altar boy. :slight_smile:

2 Likes
8

@Anagarika The place that holds the event is where Thomas Merton lived :slight_smile:

And also funerals meant a nice tip as an altar boy for me haha.

3 Likes
9

I went to Catholic school through grade 7. I never felt it was fair that girls couldn’t be ‘altar boys’! I knew they had all the fun, and now finally decades later there’s clear confirmation :unamused: And of course, no one could ever explain to me at the time why girls couldn’t be ‘altar girls’!

Was always told I asked too many questions about everything … and that I should just memorize the answers to the (standard) chatechism questions (“Who is God? God is the Supreme Being who created all things…”) "But wait, what is a Supreme Being anyway and how does it create all things???’ Long sigh from the teacher “quiet, just repeat the answers to the questions.” Sooooo frustrating

9 Likes
10

I remember going to a Catholic service once when I was very young, around five years or so in age. During the Sunday school portion for us wee ones, we were taught about the blood and body of Christ, as represented by peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and I clearly remember thinking it was a bunch of nonsense, even at that age. Then, during the service, I couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t give me a cracker (communion wafer) when everyone else got one! Since that day, I’d not felt any pull towards religious practice, in any way, except to maybe fit in with the masses. It’s no surprise that when I finally found “religion”, it’s not really a religion at all! Nevertheless, I feel I’ve found what was missing in my life, and have faith in the Buddha’s teachings which by far exceeds the faith claimed by most religious adherents. That said:

Glory, glory to the Buddha!
Glory, glory to the Buddha!
Glory, glory to the Buddha!
His truth is marching on!
(I know it’s not a Catholic hymn, but it’s the first to pop in my head)

:anjal:

2 Likes
11

The real reason, of course, is menstruation. Women’s life-power/impurity has a magical taboo power that on contact destroys the patriarchy. Funny that they never told you this!

When I went to catholic school in Oz, they had found a neat solution to this. Even though we were taught by Christian Brothers, and had religion classes every week, they never taught us anyway about the Bible or Catholicism. Looking back, it’s really weird, but that’s how it was. We did stuff like, I don’t know, draw pictures of the stained glass windows in the Chapel, or just chat about things. But I honestly don’t think that in 7 years of weekly religious education in a Catholic school I ever learned anything substantial. So much so, my best friend complained about it and asked to learn more about the Bible and Catholic doctrine. Everything I learned about these things I learned from my own interest long after leaving school.

I guess religion just wasn’t that big of a deal in Oz.

2 Likes
12

Women’s life-power/impurity has a magical taboo power that on contact destroys the patriarchy

he, he! My school had nuns as teachers, in the long black gowns with the big white ‘habit’(some name like that) head things. I always thought the priest’s clothes looked far more comfortable especially since it was often 90+ degreees with 90% humidity in the summer (but I held my tongue on that one).

13

image

“Wimple”, I believe. Funny how no-one suggested banning these head coverings when it was white Christian women wearing them.

Ajahn Brahm once told me some Chinese Buddhist nuns visited Bodhinyana, and they were wearing these. He was confused and asked them about it. They said, their teachers had told them to blend in with the local culture. They saw some Catholic nuns wearing them, and thought, “Ahh, that’s how we blend in!” This was long ago, hopefully they have found other ways of blending!

10 Likes
14

Venerable Sir.

Nowadays I am busy with my Post Graduate study in the school of Buddhist Studies at The Nalanda University Rajgir Bihar India. At present I am not free to discuss the idea’s but I seriously having Experimental Knowledge on Hinduism and Buddhism but In future I try to share my useful ideas.

Thank you

15

Thanks so much, that’s a wonderful story. People really do amaze you!

I wonder whether you discussed the whole “tearing hair out by the roots and torment yourself until you starve to death” thing. These are all parts of Jain practice, but I really don’t know how widespread they are, or how they think about them.

Venerable Sujat

16

Thanks so much, that’s a wonderful story. People really do amaze you!

I wonder whether you discussed the whole “tearing hair out by the roots and torment yourself until you starve to death” thing. These are all parts of Jain practice, but I really don’t know how widespread they are, or how they think about them.>

Venerable Sujato🙏🏻
There are two main sects in Jains, Digambaras and Shwetambaras.
Shwetambaras sect evolved later, with many requirements , relaxed for the monks.
The practice of tearing hair (pulling one by one) is followed by monks of Digmabara sect. The reason , scissors are not used as it can kill any living organism.
The main austerities, identified with Jainism are practiced by monks of Digambara sect. Other than the hair pulling, they cannot travel by vehicles, can travel by foot only.Male monks of the higher order cannot wear any clothes, which is consdered as an attachment due to societal obligations. They have to accept food given through alms . They eat while standing , and can eat food in hand only. They cannot eat after sunset and eat only once. This is practiced even by many lay persons as it is considered that living organisms, insects get active after the sunset.They have a practice of chaturmas , in which during rainy season they stay at any monastery for religious practices
The practice of salekhana is normally practiced in Jains when someone is terminally ill or old age wherein one renounces food in a stepwise manner along with religious rituals.
Otherwise the concept of severe fasting,not eating any food with water ltd to 1 time for 10 -15 days is practiced by laypersons and monks (which may be longer) mainly in the Swetambara sect.
Its very interesting to note that fundamental prayer in Jains
Namo Arihantanam- I bow to all arihants
Namo siddhanam - I bow to all siddhas…liberated souls
Namo airiyanam …I bow to all higher monks
Namo uvajyanam…I bow to all upadhyays…lesser ascetics
Namo loye savasahunam…I bow to all sages of the world.
The world arihant as in ardhmagadhi is similar to arahat as in pali .
The grandfather of Ashoka the Great Chandragupta Maurya , the first emperor of India was an Jain.He become a Jain monk after renouncing his kingdom in his later part of his life.
His wife was the daughter of an Greek general of Alexander,Megasthenes.
She is supposed to have started the practice of wearing saree which Indian women wear traditionally.

4 Likes