Bunnies, bones and funerals; some stimulus for contemplation of death and dying

Many Thanks @Media
What a great idea :smiley:

Before replying, I’ll consider your post a bit more
:dharmawheel::anjal:

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This isn’t an easy question :slight_smile: But from my perspective I believe that a lot of suffering could be curtailed/minimised, if the idea of the body as a ‘vessel’ could be incorporated into the main stream. While it is not exact re the Dhamma, it would be on the par of ‘mindfulness’ in general society.

As well as emphasising the temporary nature of the body/vessel, also an emphasis on expecting it to break down and die. From the moment of birth we expect it to happen - at any-time. This of course is currently a very distressing thought and to be avoided at all costs in the mainstream.

However, I believe that focusing on’ body as vesse’l could have a fundamental impact on not only easing age, illness and death, but also on the ‘out of control’ levels of materialism today.

If the body is a vessel for travelling through life - then one must see that there are other components (consciousness etc) that require things other than sensual/material comforts.
It also means that there is no identification with the body as self which makes letting go of physical changes and discomfort easier.

Tibetan Buddhists have already done a very good job of relaying the message of body as vessel. (I say this from an Australian perspective where Tibetan buddhism is perhaps the most well known, and promulgated amongst westerners).
Unfortunately, unlike mindfulness, I can’t see many opportunities for ‘business development’ in expanding this idea. In my mind there is no doubt that mindfulness has become so pervasive because people can make money from running all the many, many classes, retreats, books etc. This is only possible because there is an immediate tangible benefit for the person participating - they feel more relaxed, they feel better, they believe that they will feel better if they continue.

The issue with popularising a concept and attitude like the body is just a vessel, is that the rewards are in the future… and furthermore - these rewards appear to be just potential, not guaranteed, unless one is already aware of dhamma to some extent. It also requires effort without immediate reward. As such the most basic aspects of motivation come into play, and self discipline and restraint is not seen as valuable by todays mainstream. This doesn’t mean that it is hopeless, just very difficult, to frame it (popularise it) in the right way :slight_smile:

But still incorporating it into mainstream language, and perhaps as part of secular meditation and mindfulness could have far reaching benefits and set the direction.

The difficult part about this question for me was about how to bring relief to the ‘mainstream’ - to those who are not awake to Dhamma at all.
For the rest of us the Buddha gives the perfect instructions, for which I am so grateful. Having the opportunity to put it into practice has indeed reduced my own suffering and that of those close to me.

Don’t put off doing the work - life is unpredictable and you may need it later today!

With metta and karuna
:dharmawheel: :anjal: :thaibuddha: :skull_and_crossbones:

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:thinking:

But then there will always be those who love to decorate their vessels. My internet installer explained with visible passion and pride how he was looking forward to spending USD4000 to … get his favorite car painted. He had four cars and was over 30. :see_no_evil:

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I’d have to reply that he doesn’t see his cars as means of transport for the vessel of his body - but that his cars are a conditioned expression of his self/identity. It is how he wishes to be ‘perceived’ by others, because this is what he values (conditioned) - he believes it makes him happy - but it is only craving for acceptance/admiration by others. This is exactly what this question is trying to counteract.

In cases like this question I like to adopt the K.I.S.S. principle - Keep it simple stupid :slight_smile:
There is a lovely scene in a movie where the Tibetan Lama breaks a ceramic vessel with tea in it… and he asks - is this still tea? The vessel is expendable, impermanent, limited… but it is only the container for the tea… It is only a relatively insignificant job … containing the tea…

It is this ‘down-grading’ of the significance of the vessel of our bodies, that I believe would result in reduced suffering. To expect this vessel - my body- to degrade and break. To realise that the form of the vessel is just a temporary thing and not of primary focus…

I’ve witnessed such pain in people who are genuinely outraged that their bodies are not perfect - that they are finite and do their own thing, ie not within the control of an individual. Ant tiny step towards the awareness that the expected and anticipated process involves a terminal breakdown is a move in the right direction, and rather than lamenting this fact, to just see it as one part of the process of life > to value other aspects of life (inner happiness peace and serenity) rather than just the material. As an aside, this also ties in with managing the ‘fault finding mind’. Often, if focusing on the ‘failures’ of the body and the resultant physical suffering, one fails to be aware or grateful for everything else that is going on - again this only increases suffering.

Anyway this could end up being endless speculation and only stop with full enlightenment :smiley: , but I have recently had the opportunity to test this out in small general ways, and have found the general ideas to be palatable, and to go some little way towards easing suffering due to illness and death, for those with no other awareness (or desire of awareness) of the Dhamma.

Added:
I suppose I’ve come to this conclusion, at this point in time, because, while an understanding of Not Self is fundamental to the Dhamma, it is too subtle and complex to use as a general way to reduce suffering, while in the midst of challenging circumstances, for the mainstream. The idea of my body is not self, is much easier to grasp immediately, and to allow some small separation to occur. As a ‘band-aid’ measure I’ve found it useful, uncontroversial and non-challenging.

I’m very much of the opinion that any real transformative benefit requires following the Noble 8-fold path for the long term (permanently).

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Dear Gillian, indeed I searched a lot, and didn’t get to use any of the material. This was because of the nature of acceptance (or non-acceptance) of imminent death by the person.

When a person still has some hope, often they don’t want to focus on what they see as negative. In this case hope can feed denial, and it is jealously guarded. At the moment when hope is dispelled, one is already in distress and not in a state to really ‘engage’ in any conscious way.

At the next stage where visible consciousness has moved inwards - one can create an environment that is conducive to reduce distress and fear of dying, and to make the final letting go calm and peaceful. But at this stage I’d say it is really really personal, and anything beyond generalisations is not that useful.

From my own observations, the things that worked best are the firm establishment of metta and karuna in the room. To focus on gratitude, acceptance and a happy relinquishment of the suffering body. This may include just sitting, or touch, or music, or occasional gentle speech.
This also sets the tone for others, as they then have alternative methods of responding than grief and anger or continued denial.

@Timothy you may have more to add on this :slight_smile:

I just want to add that even a situation that can be interpreted as horrifying and unbearable, can be reframed in such a way as to make it completely bearable. Most of us are very lucky to liv in a time and place where medication is available, to dampen the most excruciating of pain. With the fear of pain removed, one can focus on removing the fear of our ending, of death :slight_smile:

I would be highly appreciative of the views of any monastics with experience in this area. It is something that is not often discussed, with even meditators and lay practitioners often finding the subject difficult :slight_smile:
@sujato @Brahmali @Vimala and all of the other Venerables who visit this site :anjal:

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Apologies for going on about this, and I’ll finish here.

My purpose in starting this topic was 2 fold. 1) to remind and encourage everyone how important it is to do the work as soon as possible!!
2) That there needs to be NO FEAR at all about death and dying. I took an intimate part in this process, even spending 24/hrs per day sleeping next to the person during the last week of a gruesome death. Witnessing this has removed any fear that I may previously have had. Death will come :slight_smile: but it is our attitude and preparation that will determine any suffering. Death can be a wonderful, liberating thing (apart from the temporary physical discomforts).

It is in the hope of encouraging people to explore the idea of having a good death, that I have written this account.

Blessings to the Buddha for showing us the way :anjal:

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Viveka, how did that happen?

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Which bit are you referring to? :slight_smile:

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The bit in the paragraph. How did observation of the gruesomeness of the dying process remove the fear of death? I imagine for some people it would only be a reminder that they have something very painful and gruesome in their future.

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Easy :smiley:
Our imagination and fantasy is what makes it so terrible. Being caught up in the unknowableness, uncontrollableness of things

Just seeing it, accepting it, as it is, bringing nothing else to the process…

Referring to the Buddhas message - I believe it is all about understanding things as they truly are, and not engaging in delusion :slightly_smiling_face::dharmawheel::anjal:

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Well, maybe accepting it from the outside is easy, but what about from the inside? I have a friend whose father died of emphysema, and for many weeks near the end he suffered greatly , and had horrible torturous attacks during which he felt like he was drowning .

We might hope that through advanced meditation practice we are able to achieve an experience of attachment or dissociation from our bodies and their pains. But how many people actually achieve that?

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How many - is not the right question for me. If there is even one who achieves this, if I, or anyone else, can achieve even a small degree of this, then the work is worth it.

It’s not just dissociation or achieving samadhi through meditation that yields results, but the continual observation and contemplation of mind and reactions, observing our own conditioned responses, defilements etc - the whole Noble 8 fold path.

Enough from me :slight_smile: it’s become more like 20 cents rather than 2 cents worth of my views here :rofl:
I’m handing on to the experts

Given the nature of this forum, I’m uncomfortable turning this into a personal discussion. I am sure there are many wise people who can provide the Buddhas words as resources and teachings, and I encourage them to do so.

If however, anyone feels it would be beneficial to ask any specific questions I’m happy to discuss via the Personal Messages facility.

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Could I quote this on Facebook?

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As it’s such a personal subject it’s easy to slip into that kind of discussion. Your reminder is well-timed. :slight_smile: Thank you for providing a good example of restraint. :sunflower:

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A post was split to a new topic: Old age, sickness and dying:

@Mat sure, all the words are freely given - but please fix the spelling mistake ‘Ant’ = Any

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@DKervick You have framed the questions so well. Could I suggest moving this post to the OP of a new thread :slight_smile:

I’ll do so now, but am happy to reverse it if you have objections to it :slight_smile:

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You have done very well, Viveka, in looking after your friend. It’s a priceless service to support someone at the most difficult point in their life. Even though it was very difficult for her, your presence would have made it much better. You have been a true kalyānamitta!

Well, yes, we tend hope in the wrong way. Ideally hope should be about having a bright future, not about whether we are going to survive or not. If you have lived well, you will fare on in a good way, and that should be our refuge as the end gets very near. If you are able to have this outlook, then giving up a painful and dying body is going to be a liberating experience. With the right attitude, death is joyful.

Absolutely. My own father died just two weeks ago. He fell down a long flight of stairs, onto a stone floor. He died shortly afterwards in hospital. Was it good or bad? Well, he already had advanced cancer, and according to the doctor probably had less than a year left to live. His quality of life was deteriorating rapidly. In my view it was merciful death — no drawn-out period of pain and living without purpose.

Many people were shocked, but really they shouldn’t have been. He had had cancer for many years. Personally I was surprised he had even lived that long. When the news came I was prepared. Some say they were shocked that he didn’t die of the cancer. But clearly the cancer was a very contributing factor. When the body is weak and the mind is affected by the illness, then accidents are to be expected. I don’t think it is too far-fetched to say he actually died of the cancer, or cancer combined with old age.

But what surprised me the most was my own reaction. I was largely emotionally unaffected. I attribute this to four interconnected factors. Most importantly, I have done quite a bit of death contemplation. I try my best to expect anyone to die at any time, including myself. Over time — and it does take time — this has altered my perception of life. I don’t feel particularly attached to individuals anymore.

Second, I try my best to make peace with everyone in my life. If death is always around the corner, how can you afford to have enemies or bad relationships? So I have made a very deliberate effort to let go of the past, in part by asking for forgiveness where necessary and in part by saying all I want to say. If we don’t say these things now, it may never happen. In fact it will probably not happen, because we are likely to carry that attitude of procrastination with us into the future. When death inevitably comes, we will not be ready.

Third, my father had a good life and he lived well. There is nothing really to be sad about. I have deliberately focused on the idea of a life well lived, rather than on the experience of loss. We did the same at the funeral ceremony. The ceremony was in truth an uplifting experience, as was pointed out by several of the participants. The dominance of Christianity over Western cultural tends to result in sad and tearful funerals. But it doesn’t have to be like that. As you say, Viveka, it is really about how you frame things.

Fourth, I think it helps enormously to have lived the monastic life for over 25 years. The emphasis on seclusion and separation from the people who are closest to you allows for your attachments to gradually die down. This seems to be one of the big differences between lay life and monastic life. I tend to be surprised at how attached most lay people are to others, even to the point of enduring relationships that are often far from satisfactory. But even with good relationships, the attachments are painful to observe. When I see this, I feel quite free. It is just another of the great benefits of the monastic life.

I have been getting so many beautiful messages of condolences from all over the world. I am really grateful for people’s care and kindness. As a Buddhist monastic you are often the beneficiary of people’s most beautiful qualities, and what a blessing that is. At the same time I am not sad. And there really is no need for people to be sad on my behalf. My father’s life was a life well lived. He helped build the world up, rather than drag it down. He created light, not darkness. He was a cause of happiness, not sorrow. There is only one reasonable reaction, to celebrate!

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Thank-you Ajahn @Brahmali, for your words and the great demonstration you have given regarding the benefits of death contemplation.

May your father have a good journey and happy destination! :pray:

Knowing that my friend had also lived her life well, and that her actions were all directed by kindness and compassion, definitely took away my sadness at her passing. As you say, it is to be celebrated! I know, (think, feel, intuit), that she is going to have a fortunate re-birth… (as I hope is the case with your father) and I had been busy trying to plant the seeds of Dhamma, so maybe she can discover it for herself in due course :slight_smile: . Your father must also have the benefit of your influence on his life, and I hope he too finds and sees the Dhamma :slight_smile:

I absolutely agree with this. Having spent over 6 months in her company before her death, I also noticed the type of attachment that comes of habit, of becoming habituated to certain routines, actions etc growing. When these habitual interactions cease, there is a noticeable void. So it’s a double type of attachment. I’m just separating them out, as I think they are each caused by a different thing, and therefore looking at each cause seperately is useful. 1) attachment due to habit > void in activity 2) attachment due to pleasure > craving for its continuance. Probably splitting hairs here, but I’ve found this useful when contemplating suffering caused by craving as it ties in with either not-self or impermanence.

:anjal: :anjal: :anjal:

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Thank you @Viveka for opening this thread and starting this discussion; and thank you everybody else for your contributions. I very much enjoy reading it!

I would like to share this guided death contemplation by Ajahn Brahmali. He did it at his visit to Europe two years ago, and I like it very much (although the audio quality isn’t that great). And I feel I should just do it more frequently now! :grin:

https://tilorien.org/brahmali2017/qa/Q&Aday7.mp3

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