Cessationists mistake Asaññasattāvāso for Nibbāna

Hi, I have analyzed here based on a helpful video on the various levels of nothingness.

There’s a clear difference between Parinibbana and the Asaññasattāvāso.

Anyway, here’s another take on it, from classical Theravada point of view, which holds Jhanas to be deep Jhanas, Parinibbana is total cessation of mind (corpse left behind, not really an issue), and also acknowledges that there’s the Asaññasattāvāso. I may have anticipated your questions, so I asked the Na uyana teachers a few days ago.

Difference between Asaññasattāvāso and cessation of perception and feelings, is that the cessation attainment is only for max 7 days, both have bodies, no mind, but Asaññasattāvāso can be super long. Only arahant and non-returners attain to cessation of perception and feelings, whereas the beings reborn in Asaññasattāvāso are not freed from delusion. Thus from their previous mind moments, which has the underlying tendancies of greed, hatred, delusion, the mind which arises when they fall from that is also unenlightened. The mind of an arahant or non-returner who entered into cessation of perception and feelings after emerging is also freed from the fetters they have cut off.

Asaññasattāvāso beings also have life faculty, whereas the arahants after death have no more bodies with life faculty.

So to focus too much into absence of mind alone is not enough, the underlying causes for mind to arise again, the defilements etc are very important part of Nibbana to be considered as well. So for an arahant who knows greed, hatred, delusion has been cut off, I don’t think there’s a risk for them to mistaken asaññasattāvāso as parinibbana.

Again, because you conflate the deep Jhanas issue with parinibbana is total cessation, which leads me to conclude that you’re in the camp of Jhana lite and parinibbana is something, but not nothing, something hard to describe etc. This fits in with Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s view as far as I know, and possibly others like him. There’s also monks who take the position of Jhana lite and parinibbana is total cessation, like my preceptor, Bhante Ariyadhammika.

Likely there’s also representatives of Jhana is deep and parinibbana is not nothing, but I hesitate to quote who, since I haven’t actually read a lot of contemporary teacher’s works.

Thus, please do see one issue as it is, and not conflate them, but in this case, you are indeed using both as a support for your speculation on the OP title.

Just a remark that it’s amazing the amount of viewpoints about Jhana and parinibbana can go when people move away from classical Theravada, but amongst the EBT people, the Ajahn Brahm and sutta central monastics (possibly not all) are still inline with the classical Theravada on these 2 issues.

Also, in deep dreamless sleep, it’s not without consciousness. As classical Theravada says, there’s still the Bhavanga mind there. The only time(s) without mind are in the Asaññasattāvāso, cessation of perception and feelings, and parinibbana. So, this leads me to conclude that even under Anaesthesia where it’s deeper than dreamless sleep, there’s still some mind there. I read recently that anesthesia patients don’t think time has passed as opposed to waking up from sleep, one knows time has passed. So too with the state where all mind ceases like cessation of perception and feelings, where there’s no experience, there is no sense of time flow.

Anyway, it would be interesting if someone who can read minds can verify if people under anesthesia still have some bhavanga mindstream there.

So parinibbana is not comparable to dreamless sleep. It’s much deeper. See the video on 9 levels of nothingness to see how deep nothing can go.