SuttaCentral
Just a hypothesis.
Puthujjana are like wearing tainted spectacles. Everything seen is tainted.
An Arahant has removed the glasses and has clear vision. Everything seen is without greed, hatred or delusion. The eye remains the same, only the tainted glasses is gone. Similarly, the awareness remains the same but defilements are gone.
I think I know what you are talking about. In thai forest tradition this unconditioned mind is called with various names, right?
The Citta, The Dhamma, the knowing mind, everpresent citta, the Real Buddha, awareness, radiant mind etc.
In Zen they called it the Bodhi, Mind.
In Tibet they called it Rigpa, clear light mind, subtlest mind, mind like the sky etc.
Note that all I will say is just speculation and imagination, because I am not enlightened person.
It seems that at very high level of the path, one will access this knowing mind, and it will appear that this knowing mind is unconditioned, unborn, stable, eternal, undisturbed, and undying.
This contradict buddhist teaching that there is no permanent self. I believe that one must go beyond this knowing mind, see it as not self, empty, to finish the path.
Referring to above poster about two nibbana, I agree that the real unconditioned mind is realized when arahat has passed away and no future aggregates are produced.
Actually, this is the reasoning behind “three lifetimes dependent origination”. Even after liberated, Arahat still have volition, Consciousness, feeling, and six sense base, they dont immediately become unfeeling robot.
In my opinion, those teachers and tradition that teach about this knowing mind is not wrong. It is still a valid way in the path, and to achieve that is still quite a feat. But I believe one should go even beyond that to reach nibbana.
How can conditioned mind know the unconditioned? Well, by experience, and inference.
For example, if I enter jhana one time, then I know for sure that jhana truly exist. If I enter twice, then I know it is reproducible. If I constantly enter it, for sure I can teach it to others, because I know all the conditions necessary for it. Even though I am not in the state of entering jhana right now.
If I see there is no greed, hatred, and delusion inside me, and there is no condition that make them arise within me. If I know there is no condition for me to be reborn, then surely I know the unconditioned, and the path to it.
There is too much emphasis on awareness and consciousness in the argument. Liberation is not on the conscious/aware level, otherwise we would indeed run into logical issues. Liberation, I think, would need to occur on a non-conscious register and then necessarily also manifest itself or occur or affect consciousness/knowing. Then consciousness would as a consequence also be liberated and experience accordingly without the weight and burdon of the pre-liberation-consciousness. But not as the prime target of liberation.
Quoting Sutta AN6.47 for consideration. When asked how Dhamma can be directly visible, immediately effective etc. Buddha responded:
“When there’s greed in you, do you understand ‘I have greed in me’? And when there’s no greed in you, do you understand ‘I have no greed in me’?”
No supernatural unborn unconditioned mind is mentioned as the criteria. Just normal mind that can comprehend its own moods and thoughts with truthfulness.
“Sir, they speak of ‘a teaching visible in this very life’. In what way is the teaching visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves?”
“Well then, Sīvaka, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, Sīvaka? When there’s greed in you, do you understand ‘I have greed in me’? And when there’s no greed in you, do you understand ‘I have no greed in me’?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since you know this, this is how the teaching is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.
@Jasudho I support this answer from @Sunyo as a good and correct answer.
For the first type of nibbana, i.e. the complete elimination of the defilements, then a noble disciple has the ability to check that there are no more conditions which can cause the taints to arise. The absence of conditions which can cause the taint to arise, when this is contemplated, is called the contemplation of the unconditioned.
A monk learns cause and effect. Learns how effects arise with the emergence of causes; he knows how effects cease with the cessation of causes; and how with the final destruction of the causes, the effects finally cease. This does not need to be experienced at the level of sensory experience. It is necessary to know this with wisdom, to penetrate into the principle of the given event. Nibbana is not seen on the “screen of the mind”, “with the inner eyes of the imagination” - it is perceived by wisdom. Wisdom comprehends its meaning - the cessation of aggregates through the destruction of causes. Another way is to contemplate this dhamma together with the complete extinction of all other conditioned consciousnesses and experiences. By itself, the experience of this annihilation of all conditioned objects in the nibbana-object speaks of its nature of purity, freedom from everything conditioned. In this case, Nibbana is not experienced by the body (through the extinction of one’s own mind and body in real time), but by wisdom. That is, the quality of the state in which all aggregates fade away are cognized. This condition is observed from the side, as if under laboratory conditions, under a microscope. But there is a special state when nibbana is experienced by the “body” - nirodha samapati. When a monk enters this meditative state, his mind is gradually extinguishing and he is aware of the extinguishing of the mind to complete cessation. Then there is continued cessation and all experience and awareness are terminated. then the first flashes of the mind arise, which become aware of its own arising. and finally, after coming out of this state, the monk sees that his mind was completely inactive, his defilements, if any, are now destroyed. And consciousness is perceived as something that can fade away and stop, i. e. It’s empty. This is how Nibbana is cognized by one’s own experience, by the “body”. Finally, there is a third way to know Nibbana. Through non-clinging, the mind is liberated. There is no sense of “I” in aggregates or elsewhere. Without dwelling anywhere, thus the complete extinction of “bhava” is achieved. It is no longer important whether the aggregates last or they disintegrate. They are like a house in which no one lives. The abandoned house decays and falls apart, but no one cares anymore.
Can you quote sutta why there is three ways?
Buddha only said 2 ways to liberate: Ubhatobhāgavimutto (freedom by both ways) and paññāvimutto( freedom by wisdom) such as DN 28.
These are not ways to attain nibbana, these are ways to understand nibbana. I described them not even in three, but in four ways. 1. Consideration of the law of dependent arising. 2. Consideration of Nibbana Dhamma as in the Majima Nikaya Sutta 64. 3. Cessation of aggregates, immersion in Nibbana “with the body” (as in the Nibbana Sutta). 4. experiencing nibbana through emptiness. One of the suttas says that seeing the absence of self is nibbana itself. My answer is based on a creative understanding of the Dhamma, on the basis of insight into its essence. references to “this is exactly the division into three (four)” will not help you, they will not be found, and it is not necessary.
Thank you! This is helpful. From what you’ve expressed, the first nibbana is what the Buddha taught, for example, in the Bahiya Sutta. The second can’t be taught, at least from direct experience, at all. Is that correct in your view?
Regarding the second nibbana – what is the Buddha referring to when he said (forgive me, I’m writing from memory without references and am paraphrasing) “This should be experienced, no sun ,no ,moon…liberation.” This description, I think in the Suuta Nipata or Udana, seems to relate to the complete absence of all conditioned phenomena/ aggregates – so by the definitions above, was the Buddha only referring to an arupa jhana or to nibbana?
This message was addressed to Bhante Sunyo, but let me answer too. Yes, if you remember, a certain sphere is really described there. There are spheres of space, consciousness, nothing, neither-being-nor-non-being. And there is also the realm of termination. And what is it like? in this sphere there is no sun and moon (this is not the world of forms), in this sphere there are no four arupas. it is also not a sphere in which there is this world (this life, this being) and the next one (that is, there is no future life in it after death), it also has no coming and going. what does it mean? it is one unique, special sphere in which one does not reborn. There is no arising in it - that is, nothing arises there. and since it has not arisen, then it will not stop. If a consciousness arose in this sphere, which cognizes it, following the example of the consciousness of the Brahmas, who arose in spheres without forms to cognize them, then this sphere would not be the same as the Buddha describes it - without any emergence. That is, it is a sphere in which even an observer who would observe it does not arise. Such a total denial speaks of only one thing - about nirodha-samapati - this is the sphere. and there is corresponding nirodha-dhatu - the element of cessation. there is rupa-dhatu, arupa-dhatu and nirodha-dhatu. in nirodha-dhatu it is impossible to arise, to be reborn, it is impossible to be consciousness in it, since it will be like the sphere of “nothing”, in which there is nothing, but there is consciousness that cognizes “there is nothing here.” and in this sphere there is not even a sphere of “nothing”. that is, in the sphere of nirodha, no consciousnesses arise that would cognize it. One can plunge into this realm with the body of the mind, thereby experiencing cessation. Either this sphere is cognized with wisdom - as a complete extinction of all structures and their causes. As an object in which there is nothing constructed.
Thank you. nonne of the questions and responses came from a place of “falling into emptiness” and nothing matters. Without sila there is no real practice. I’m not interested in concepts and academic discussions about Dhamma.
The questions about awareness and nibbana were posted because there are, and have been, well-respected teachers, particularly in the Thai Forest Tradition, who teach about an unconditional awareness/knowing. While other well-respected teachers deny this.
The questions have nothing to do with conditional jhanas, no matter how profound or necessary as aspects of practice.
Sunyo’s two nibbanas response I think clarifies the matter and makes sense from the standpoint of Dhamma – although I’ve asked about teachings by the Buddha which describe the complete absence of conditional phenomena, including the aggregates and hence conditional consciousness. I’m assuming that the Buddha was referring to one or more formless jhanas in these instances, rather than nibbana.
It is doubtful, with all respect, that anyone logging onto Sutta Central is an arahant. So, any questions and responses will be limited to some degree.
thank you. We agree on most points.
You wrote “How can conditioned mind know the unconditioned? Well, by experience, and inference.”
My questions were aimed exactly at the “by experience” portion of your reply. If there is no conditional, or any, consciousness in nibbana, what “knows” the experience? The jhanas, as we know, are conditional so conditional consciousness is still present to “know” it. Sunyo’s answer provides useful clarity here.
Interestiing. Still, if there is no observer or consciousness that arises or cognizes, how can it even be subsequently known and taught about? Even “conscious of the cessation of consciousness” points to a knowing – however selfless, formless, etc.
But, again, I think Bhante Sunyo’s remarks are very helpful.
I already wrote above that this phenomenon can be cognized in different ways. through the vision of the law of cause and effect. through immersion in nirodha samapati and revision of this state. through the comprehension of dhamma with wisdom, in which everything is terminated. And it is also important to note: precisely because we cannot experience anything there, and being in nirodha, to know that nirodha has occurred - precisely for this reason - we call it “nirodh”. if we knew that there was “nirodha”, we would not be able to call it “nirodha”, because then something would remain in the cessation and it would not be a cessation. But we can see this cessation being conscious. You don’t have to dive into the well to find out what is in the well. just look inside.
I like the answer by Bhante @Sunyo too. We can know when we are in the middle of a large desert, our car is falling to bits with no way of fixing it, we’ve nearly run out of fuel and have no appetite to find fuel anyway - the battery is dead, we are stuck in the sand, we’ve got no break-down cover and no-one can find us anyway. Our time is up for sure.
Just thought I’d drop these two sutta’s here too.
1.2“Mendicants, give up desire and greed for form. 1.3Thus that form will be given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.
1.4Give up desire and greed for feeling … 1.5 1.6perception … 1.7 1.8choices … 1.9 1.10consciousness. 1.11Thus that consciousness will be given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.”
6.1Then it occurred to me: 6.2I have discovered the path to awakening. That is: 6.3When name and form cease, consciousness ceases. 6.4When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. 6.5When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. 6.6When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. … 6.7That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases. 6.8‘Cessation, cessation.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.
7.1Suppose a person was walking through a forest. They’d see an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by humans in the past. 7.2Following it along, 7.3they’d see an ancient city, an ancient capital, inhabited by humans in the past. It was lovely, complete with parks, groves, lotus ponds, and embankments. 7.4Then that person would inform a king or their minister: 7.5‘Please sir, you should know this. While walking through a forest I saw an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by humans in the past. 7.6Following it along I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital, inhabited by humans in the past. It was lovely, complete with parks, groves, lotus ponds, and embankments. 7.7Sir, you should rebuild that city!’ 7.8Then that king or their minister would have that city rebuilt. 7.9And after some time that city was successful and prosperous and full of people, attained to growth and expansion. 7.10In the same way, I saw an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past.
8.1And what is that ancient path, the ancient road traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past? 8.2It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: 8.3right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion. 8.4This is that ancient path, the ancient road traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past.
8.5Following it along, I directly knew old age and death, 8.6their origin, 8.7their cessation, 8.8and the practice that leads to their cessation. 8.9 8.10Following it along, I directly knew rebirth … 8.11continued existence … 8.12grasping … 8.13craving … 8.14feeling … 8.15contact … 8.16the six sense fields … 8.17name and form … 8.18consciousness … 8.19 8.20Following it along, I directly knew choices, 8.21their origin, 8.22their cessation, 8.23and the practice that leads to their cessation.
8.24Having directly known this, I told the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen. 8.25And that’s how this spiritual life has become successful and prosperous, extensive, popular, widespread, and well proclaimed wherever there are gods and humans.”
How do you know, that you have slept? You know it by waking up and feeling refreshed. You know it after the fact, not while it is happening. The same is true for the experience of cessation.
Well, that is beyond my intellectual mind to answer. What knows the experience, indeed.
But I imagine, since Buddha always saying that he directly know, also, that he regularly “enjoy the bliss of nibbana”, this can be experienced directly while arahat still lives.
Hi, thanks for the reply, and I’m happy I could help.
You’re probably referring to SN 35.117: “So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away. […] mind ceases and perception of thoughts fades away.” (transl. Sujato) The Bahiya Sutta (Udana 1.10) has the same problem. It’s to do with the word ‘understand’.
This is an example of how much influence the translator’s ideas have. The word for ‘should understand’ some render as ‘should experience’. But that is wrong. The word is veditabba (or vedi in the Bahiya sutta), a form of the verb vedeti, related to the more familiar vedāna, ‘feeling’ or ‘experience’. When the six senses cease, vedāna (i.e. experience) ceases too, so it is clear that the meaning of the verb here is not ‘experience’. Instead it is indeed ‘understand’, as Venerable Sujato and Venerable Bodhi have it correctly. This is a very well established meaning of the verb, and the PTS Pali-English dictionary even mentions it as option A.
Of course the rendering ‘understand’ instead of ‘experience’ changes the meaning totally. It comes down to what I said before: an enlightened one (or any noble one for that matter) understands that the six senses will cease after death, and they realize what that entails–which, spoilers, is not a kind of consciousness–but they don’t experience it consciously. However, they do experience the cessation of the defilements consciously.
Though Florian also has a point: a temporary cessation of consciousness can be remembered afterwards. That is not called nibbāna in the suttas, however. So although some may say stream enterers “experienced nibbāna”, that is technially not how the suttas use the word. In the suttas nibbāna, though all noble ones have no doubt about what it is, is exclusive to the fully enlightened ones. Again, it only means either (a) the cessation of the defilements after enlightenment or (b) the cessation of the aggregates after death, never something temporary. And never a kind of consciousness.
Excellent, Bhante! This is what I call understanding with wisdom, penetrating the meaning. It is not an experience that seems to appear on the screen of the mind. The mind is not the eye, it comprehends the meaning.
Again, thank you Ven. Sunyo. I’ve noticed that in SN 22.54, Iti 44, and SN12.64, the Buddha uses the word vinnana (which I understand points to conditional consciousness), rather than words denoting “deathlessness”, “unmade”, etc.
What triggered the original question was reading an article by a well-known monk in the Thai Forest tradition who wrote that the “consciousness that does not land anywhere”, as in SN 12.64 was “deathless.” But in that sutta, too, the Buddha also uses the word vinnana.
From what you’ve expressed and, by going back and reading the Pali versions of those suttas, even consciousness that lands nowhere (vinnana avirulham), is conditional. It’s just that there is understanding of: release, and the final extinction of all senses after death. Oui? 