SuttaCentral
that’s very right. Nibbana there is only one. Same nibbana in the beguinning and in the end.
The search of Siddharta was a rejection of the previous ideas about the impossibility to get an end of dukkha until death.
Only who had experienced nibbana have checked why dukkha was completely eradicated by the Buddha. This is inside of the first 3 eradicated fetters.
Why can’t this property of cessation be taken as an object of knowledge? The Suttas speak directly of this particular focus on the quality of cessation, nibbana. as for the unconditioned with devilments consciousness: I think that this unconditioned consciousness can be called nibbana with residual aggregates.
What makes you think that it describes the achievement of a state of cessation of perception and feeling? Please show the sutta where it is written that this is nirodha-samapati! Nirodha-samapati is entered from only 4-th arupa-sphere. There are no other ways. This is clearly stated in the suttas. Further, in the sutta you cited, concentration on nibbana-dhamma is described. in the suttas, for example, in MN 64, it is said that such concentration on Nibbana Dhamma can occur from jhana 1 to 7 after contemplating the 5 aggregates and their characteristics. In another sutta, Ananda asks if there is such a concentration in which something is perceived, but the four material elements, 4 arupas, this world and the next are not perceived. The Buddha answers - yes, there is such a perception, when a monk perceives - this is peace, this is the highest, the cessation of all formations, the extinction of all passions, the rejection of all gains, nibbana. And so, you mixed Nirodha-Samapati, which is achieved from the 4th arupa-sphere and is accompanied by a complete cessation of perceptions (whence its name) and concentration on nibbana-dhamma, which is achieved from 1 to 7 jhana after the practice of insight and is accompanied by the perception of nibbana and non-perception of the whole world and five aggregates.
One needs to distinguish Sanna-Vedayita-Nirodha and Nirodha-samapati. These 2 are different. But commentary has made them as the same state.
Sanna-Vedayita-Nirodha = no “perception” and no feeling → state of like dead body with no mind. But one can’t stay this way for long time, One needs to come back alive. This state is described on SN 41.6, MN 43 and MN 44.
…
“But ma’am, how does someone emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling?”"A mendicant who is emerging from such an attainment does not think:
I will emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I am emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I have emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling.’
Rather, their mind has been previously developed so as to lead to such a state.”
…
Nirodha samapati = There is “perception”, but nothing is registered. Described on AN 11.7, as mentioned by @Alaray.
And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
…
“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives:
‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation (nirodho), Nibbana.’
Also if you read MN 1 Mūlapariyāyasutta. This is how Arahant/Awaken one operate on daily activity. Also a non returner that reach this level such as Citta, Visākha, etc.
I should note that this is entirely your assumption. Nowhere is the state of contemplation of Nibbana-dhamma referred to in the suttas by the term “Nirodha-samapati.” The fact that you underlined the word “nirodha” in the list of epithets of nibbana does not mean that it is precisely “nirodha-samapati.” The word nirodha simply means cessation. in the case of nirodha-samapati, it is the complete cessation of perception and feeling, in the case of experiencing nibbana-dhamma, it is the perception of cessation of aggregates/nibbana as a certain property, quality of cessation. In the suttas, this is also called nirodha-sannya
It is clearly seen here that this “perception” is placed in the series of insight perceptions. That is, we are talking about achieving the contemplation of nibbana through the passage of perceptions of the five aggregates and their characteristics. it’s all a series of “perceptions” and directly related to nirodha-samapati, the cessation of perception and feeling, - they do not.
<<…“If, Ānanda, you visit the bhikkhu Girimānanda and speak to him about ten perceptions, it is possible that on hearing about them his affliction will immediately subside. What are the ten?
“(1) The perception of impermanence, (2) the perception of non-self, (3) the perception of unattractiveness, (4) the perception of danger, (5) the perception of abandoning, (6) the perception of dispassion, (7) the perception of cessation, (8) the perception of non-delight in the entire world, (9) the perception of impermanence in all conditioned phenomena, and (10) mindfulness of breathing…
…(6) “And what, Ānanda, is the perception of dispassion? Here, having gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, a bhikkhu reflects thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, nibbāna.’ This is called the perception of dispassion.
(7) “And what, Ānanda, is the perception of cessation? Here, having gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, a bhikkhu reflects thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, cessation, nibbāna.’ This is called the perception of cessation…>>
(SuttaCentral)
And in AN11: 18, It is again referred to as a state in which there are no other perceptions, but there is a perception of cessation and a perception of dispassion.
Sāriputta
Sāriputtasutta
AN 10.7
Ānanda asks Sāriputta about a mysterious state of immersion in meditation where there is no normal perception, yet one is still conscious. Sāriputta confirms that there is, and claims to have attained it.
Then Venerable Ānanda went up to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to Sāriputta:
“Could it be, reverend Sāriputta, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.”
“It could be, Reverend Ānanda.”
“But how could this be?”
“Reverend Ānanda, one time I was staying right here at Sāvatthī in the Dark Forest. There I gained a state of immersion like this. I didn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And I didn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And I didn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet I still perceived.”
“But at that time what did Reverend Sāriputta perceive?”
“One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’ Suppose there was a burning pile of twigs. One flame would arise and another would cease. In the same way, one perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’ At that time I perceived that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.”
In AN11:18 Buddha explains that this special state is that wich called Nirodha-Sanya in another sutta mentioned by me above.
Found in the Girimananda Sutta. But from the way Buddha taught, Ven. Girimananda might not have reached arahant level. One needs to be in experiential mode to be in deathless (unconditioned). But from time to time, arahant may switch mode to existential mode to talk and do other daily activity such as eat, walk etc.
You are quoting part of similar to the Satipatthana 4th tetrad. This is still a conditional state.
Nibbana is unconditioned, no contemplation. Seeing things as it is.
Arahant has reached Bhava Nirodha Nibbana. They have stopped all existence. They just wait for the body to die (which is not theirs).
Sometime, this is also refer to taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti = ending of all cravings, dissipation, cessation, nibbana. As described on AN 11.7 and also on AN 10.7 quoted by @LucasOliveira.
Also, Arahant/Buddha/awaken one never born, get old, die by the way. Nibbana is here and now, no need to wait to die. Arahant knows when their mind is clear of avijja and tanha. 
Thank you Nikolas,
I didn’t realize that the sutta had the same information.
maybe this sutta can also help in this post
The Shorter Classification
Cūḷavedallasutta
MN 44
The layman Visākha asks the nun Dhammadinnā about various difficult matters, including some of the highest meditation attainments. The Buddha fully endorses her answers.
“A mendicant who is entering such an attainment does not think: ‘I will enter the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I am entering the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I have entered the cessation of perception and feeling.’ Rather, their mind has been previously developed so as to lead to such a state.”
“But ma’am, which cease first for a mendicant who is entering the cessation of perception and feeling: physical, verbal, or mental processes?”
“Verbal processes cease first, then physical, then mental.”
“But ma’am, how does someone emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling?”
“A mendicant who is emerging from such an attainment does not think: ‘I will emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I am emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I have emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling.’ Rather, their mind has been previously developed so as to lead to such a state.”
“But ma’am, which arise first for a mendicant who is emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling: physical, verbal, or mental processes?”
“Mental processes arise first, then physical, then verbal.”
“But ma’am, when a mendicant has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact do they experience?”
“They experience three kinds of contact: emptiness, signless, and undirected contacts.”
“But ma’am, when a mendicant has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, what does their mind slant, slope, and incline to?”
“Their mind slants, slopes, and inclines to seclusion.”
You don’t seem to understand, but I’ll reiterate that in the suttas, the perception of cessation and the cessation of perception and feeling are different achievements. The first occurs as a result of insight into the three characteristics and contains perception. in the second, all perception and feeling cease completely. If you are directly told that this is the cessation of perception, then why do you think that there is perception there? the term itself speaks for itself.
On the contrary. From the Buddha/Arahant point of view, all experience is just suffering arising and suffering ceasing.
2.6you’ll have no doubt or uncertainty that what arises is just suffering arising, and what ceases is just suffering ceasing. Your knowledge about this is independent of others.
you can call it nibbana Sanna/Sanya too, it’s not wrong to call nibbana as permanent cessation of perception and feeling
since all perception cease during parinibbana this special perception have to be something that’s outside of the “all”
which Buddha mentioned here
mn49
“‘Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn’t the all, I wasn’t in the all, I wasn’t coming forth from the all, I wasn’t “The all is mine.” I didn’t affirm the all. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you.’“‘If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.’
“‘Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth… the liquidity of liquid… the fieriness of fire… the windiness of wind… the allness of the all.’
Please show me the pali of this all experience is suffering.
Buddha said all experience is anatta. (Sabbe dhamma anatta)
All constructed conditions is suffering. (Sabbe sankhara dukkha).
Please dont get confused between the two.
If you look at the pali that you quoted, there is no experience word there.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṁ uppajjati, dukkhaṁ nirujjhamānaṁ nirujjhatī’ti
The translation is way off in my opinion. Because the uppajjamanam is compound between uppajja + mana.
Your Suffering arise due to your mind creation, the suffering end when your mind stop creating.
Buddha/ arahant mind has stop creating. So there can’t be any dukkha to arise. As Buddha said, one has pull off the roots make like palm stump.
when delusion/greed/ill-will has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.”
I have given you suttas that show that it is really a mistake to confuse these two achievements. the cessation of perception and feeling is no perception. there is no experience even of nibbana-dhamma. it’s just stated in the title of this achievement. The perception of nibbana/nirodha is a different achievement and different from the cessation of perception and feeling. It is listed with ten perceptions/insights and is attained by vipassana, not by deep samadhi.
The problem is that you are trying to drag perception into a state of non-perception - this is nonsense. substitution of concepts.
You can read Bhante Sunya’s article on this. It mentions the Infinite (anantam) consciousness, which has been mentioned many times in the suttas as the 2nd arupa-sphere, the goal of the brahmanists. Therefore, both mentions of this consciousness are in the suttas with the dialogues of Brahma and Buddha, where the Buddha debunks Brahma and his achievement - infinite (anantam) consciousness. Anidassanam here is invisible, and is mentioned as a synonym along with formless (arupa). I. e., there is an infinite, formless consciousness. this is the 2nd arup-spheres. This phrase is attributed to the Buddha only in the Burmese canon. In Sri Lankan, Thai, and Pali Text Society editions, it is attributed to Brahma. Also in the Burmese canon there is no reference to Brahma at the beginning of the verse, that is, these are not Buddha’s words to Brahma, but a continuation of Brahma’s speech. In the Chinese version of the sutta, these words belong to Brahma. Thus, there is indisputable evidence that this passage is Brahma’s words about his attainment of a world without form, an infinite, formless consciousness.
But even if this is what is being said here about a certain state of consciousness that has transcended everything (for example, through non-clinging), then where did you get the idea that this consciousness describes parinibbana? The meditating arahant truly transcends EVERYTHING and is not affected by EVERYTHING, since he is not hooked to anything in the world and his mind, consciousness, freely, transcends ALL. However, this consciousness depends on the name-form, as it arises depending on the six sensory supports. The Buddha said that all consciousness arises only depending on the six pillars. and without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. And when the monks asked the Buddha directly whether there is any consciousness that would be eternal, not subject to change, whether there is any perception, etc., he answered - no, there is no such thing and cannot be, because if there were holly life would be impossible. Read the Nail Sutta. Really. if our consciousness is eternal, then there is no suffering, because we are eternal. And if this “eternal perception” arises only during nibbana, then it turns out that it has a beginning. and that which has a beginning, once arose, has also the nature of cessation. Simple logic breaks all these concepts
Agree.
Which text does the Pali quote come from?
Except the Buddha said all consciousness is conditioned. A consciousness or citta utterly free of all defilements and attachments may be nibbana with residua, but that consciousness is not unconditioned. Many of the replies in this thread, including from Ven. Sunyo point to the fact that there is no permanent or unconditional consciousness.
@Jasudho
… as for the unconditioned with devilments consciousness…
… can be called nibbana with residual aggregates…
it’s impossible for Buddha to say that there’s no consciousness and perception, Buddha needs a special consciousness to check and confirm that all consciousness had indeed died at that time, this is a consciousness which cognizes the disappearance of all other consciousnesses, at least the Buddha needs to be aware that there is no awareness left, all awareness have ceased, this awareness that no awareness exists is what Buddha means
that’s not dimension of infinite consciousness Buddha said this in another sutta
dn11
“‘Where do water, earth, fire, & windhave no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
“‘And the answer to that is:
“‘Consciousness without surface,
without end,luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of (the activity of) consciousness
each is here brought to an end.’”
now consciousness is part of name when name vanishes even dimension of infinite consciousness will cease to exist too leaving only that special consciousness
Buddha said in this sutta that the state goes beyond form and formless realm
ud1.10
Where water, earth,fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don’t shine,
the sun isn’t visible.
There the moon doesn’t appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has realized [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
now this previous quote
can be written as this
perception without surface, endless,radiant all around
because perception = consciousness,
the “radiant all around” doesn’t mean it’s dimension of infinite consciousness because nibbana = knowledge = light
There the stars don’t shine,
the sun isn’t visible.
There the moon doesn’t appear.
which should mean that there’s no light there, there’s only darkness there, you can’t have both light and darkness at the same time
but
There darkness is not found.
means that there’s no darkness too there, there’s light there but this source of light doesn’t come from sun,moon or stars, this source of light comes from nibbana itself hence Buddha called it as “radiant all around” because nibbana is self illuminating
now of course by “light” Buddha doesn’t mean ordinary light, knowledge is what Buddha means here
without end,
without end means without limit which is infinity but it’s not dimension of infinite consciousness since it’s not consciousness that is infinite here but the light is infinite and by light Buddha means knowledge so infinite knowledge or infinite wisdom is what Buddha means here
“‘Consciousness
consciousness here is awareness,
without surface
the difference between 6 senses consciousnessess and this consciousness is the object/surface , the 6 senses consciousness have their own surface, for example eye consciousness have sight as its surface/object, mind consciousness have thought as its surface while this consciousness which Buddha was talking about is without surface,
all consciousnessess always arise with object that’s the reason they are conditioned phenomena but this consciousness has no object since beginingless time it’s just we don’t realize this, we know this ignorance is beginingless too, the moment we realize this the moment we get awakening
object is the support,the foundation or the condition of consciousness
sn22.55
If a mendicant has given up greed for the form element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.
If a mendicant has given up greed for the feeling element …
perception element …
choices element …
consciousness element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.
Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.
so we can change this below quote
to this
consciousness without object, endless, radiant all around
or this
consciousness without support, endless, radiant all around
Buddha said that nibbana is without support here
ud8.1
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,unevolving, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Since that consciousness does not become established
note that unestablished consciousness doesn’t mean it no longer exists, it’s simply doesn’t establish on the 5 aggregates when craving for 5 aggregates cease it unbind from the 5 aggregates hence it’s called unbinding
it is freed
it’s freed from defilement, if it ceases Buddha would say so but Buddha instead said it’s freed which means it becomes pure so consciousness doesn’t cease to exist instead it becomes pure radiant without end
13.7Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
mind = sentience = consciousness
sn12.61
But that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another
we can change this quote too
to this
freed consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around
or this
unestablished consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around
without changing the meaning at all
consciousnessess with surface arise at 6 senses they are conditional, consciousness without surface is the opposite
Yeah. You’re right. Not in the translation either. So let’s just lose the word ‘experience’ if you don’t like it, the translation I quoted says ‘what arises’ (for an arahant) instead. Is that any better, or how would you translate it?
Yeah, sure. No new growth. There’s no rebirth in any realm for an arahant after final passing away. But before that, whatever the mind has created prior to their nibbana is still there until final passing away.