Re: attaining stream-entry, to my surprise it seems that the consensus has almost become the Mahayana position. You can delay your enlightenment for the sake of your family. I’m not sure that is justified completely. Kind users have provided examples from the suttas where people have not gone into the lay life because they have to take care of their families, but these are contrasted by examples of people divorcing after attaining anagami.
I agree with your second point. I refer to this position now as “acceptable Buddhist collateral”. We just have to trust in the people who leave their children and take up the robes because they have more wisdom than we do. So far i’m not convinced by that. In another interesting turn this is actually the Tantric position.
I noticed that people who advise people to stay in the family have arguments:
in the Pali suttas it is written that there will be another beneficial rebirth that is a matter of faith
in the Pali suttas it is written that there have been people who have made sufficient progress even though they lived in an unhealthy way or in spite of an unfavorable environment, which is again a matter of faith
I recommend checking what is better for yourself without being guided by holy scriptures and faith. Leave your family for a while and see if it benefited you. If you couldn’t make progress then go back. If it was your best time then stay and keep working on yourself.
While the advice given in this thread may be helpful to you in making your decisions @jway9 , it’s best you discuss any actual plans whether to ordain with the actual parties involved, the place you plan to ordain/spiritual advisors and your family.
Sutta references and theoretical material aside, I’m sure you understand any advice on the matter can be very detrimental to you and all involved, so it’s best to take any advice on an internet forum with reservation.
Each person has their individual path. There are so many factors and circumstances that affect the decisions we make in our lives that we can’t judge if being a lay person or a monastic is better or worse. We can practice in any environment and any situation - after all the most important thing is our attitude and reactions.
Sometimes taking care of your family is the best thing to be done and can bring a lot of spiritual fruits, sometimes leaving them behind is the best decision. If you feel that your family will have a huge problem without you taking care of them and you’d feel deep remorse if you’d leave them - don’t do that. If you know that they’ll have enough help and resources to live well it’ll be also easier for you. In some situations, it’s just not possible to leave and also staying can be a great opportunity for your own growth - I’m saying that as an only daughter who stayed with my suffering from cancer mother till her last moment.
In general, you have to ask yourself what you really feel while thinking of possible scenarios and of course talk with your family as well.
Also when it comes to the precepts - personally I think that loosing interest in entertainment or sexuality is a long process and it happens gradually and naturally while progressing on the path, using too much force to keep them can bring a lot more harm than good.
There are different approaches to the relationship between monk and community in different cultures and different traditions. Japanese monks, for instance, can marry. Any of them, not just Jōdo Shinshū (i.e. Mahayana). I have yet to hear about a married couple that are both monks. It’s something I can see Japan doing … but …
If I talk about Japanese Buddhism I usually separate out Zen, Mikkyō and Mahayana. Mahayana are the popular schools, Shin and Nichiren, basically. Mikkyō is tantra, and those schools have been highly influential in Japanese Buddhism. They come across as pretty strict to me, although Zen can be very strict. There are Zen temples where the only way to enter is to just go sit outside the genkan for however long they feel like leaving you there. They’ll keep you alive with a bowl of rice, geez and maybe green tea. That’s about it. Other than that, they’ll decide.
And please do keep in mind that of the first six Buddhist schools in Japan, two were Theravada (which still exists in the country, plus you can go to Goenka retreats in Kyoto and stuff like that) and there is a true Yogācāra school still there, which I think has existed since the Nara period. I would imagine that it’s designated an important cultural property.
Theravada people who want to denigrate Japan as being not Buddhist … well … in the real world, who do they think that reflects badly on? Not Japan.
It struck me that Goenka is quite the perfect example of a lay person who attained great heights in the Dhamma while remaining in the lay life … the perfect contrast to U Tejaniya who chose to ordain. Two different people, two completely contrasting life paths and both seem to have achieved good results.
I like him. I think he’s a very interesting case (well he’s passed away now). There are a lot of places in Canada where if it weren’t for Goenka the people here wouldn’t have had any exposure to Buddhism.
With modern nuclear family structures this might well stop a parent going forth whilst their children are growing up and needing care and education. But the average age of death has risen, so it’s quite possible for someone to make proper provision for adult children and go forth for the remainder of their life. I’m not recommending this as a life plan before starting a family, but it seems to work well enough for those who receive the permission of adult children to ordain.
& I’m thinking that @faujidoc1 can describe the traditional Indian take on this model better than I can. It’s something that has always impressed me.
Traditionally, a persons life is divided into 4 stages as per Vedic philosophy
around 8 years - around 25 years : Brahmacharya: the person leaves home, stays with a Guru, remaining celibate and devoting themselves to their studies. They acquire both spiritual and practical knowledge as appropriate to their caste
around 25 years - around 50 years : Grihasta : the person devotes themselves to householder duties, starting and taking care of their family
around 50 years - around 75 years : Vanaprastha : with one’s children having grown up, one should hand over their inheritance, gradually renouncing material pleasures in favour of spiritual life. One may still be partially in touch with society and family, but more in the role of an advisor.
75 years + : Sannyasa : Having achieved spiritual breakthrough, the person renounces the world completely, cutting off all ties with the material world, devoting themselves to God.
The child is considered to be able to care for themselves once over 8 years of age. There is no question of abandonment, both the Hindu way of life and Buddhism stress the primacy of doing one’s duty (Dharma), aspects of which have also been described by the Buddha in DN31.
The person leaving the household life would necessarily hand over all their assets, including a claim on ancestral property to the patriarch of the family whose responsibility it would be to care for the renunciate’s wife and children. (These being joint/ extended family systems, children are anyway cared for by everyone, not just the immediate parents).
Personally, I feel that the current modern trend of people having their families late and sticking on in active professional life till way past their prime is an injustice to the young. If young adults cannot get well paying starter jobs or start a family while in their early twenties, being resigned to live in their parent’s basement being ‘looked after’ like children… the fault lies entirely with the 50 - 60 year olds who are occupying the positions at the top and ‘backing up’ the flow! Of course, that is a complex problem (and probably would lead to vigourous discussion in a new thread )… but the traditional Indian solution has always been for people with gray hair to ceede their positions of authority to those younger than them (MN83). Hence the stress on Renunciation and Spirituality.
I think there is a plethora of approaches from full renunciation to having sex with many wives, after attainment. Renunciation looks more likely the higher you are on the path (non-returner or higher). So stream entry is considered a good balance between the spiritual and material lives. I thought about renunciation a lot though I was married with kids, but felt I wont do it because I can progress more as a lay person before I struck a ‘ceiling’ of sorts. In terms of insight, aggregates are the same whether a lay person or a monk. You can go on retreats if you want the prolonged seclusion that monks have. Don’t forget monks have various responsibilities too! A stream entrant knows that they are destined for enlightenment, so there is less of need to attain enlightenment right away!
Definitely, in particular attempting to practice jhana is a total waste of time for lay people and monastics as jhana is not the result of a practice but of having abandoned the five hindrances.
So the practice is that, again for lay and monastic : transforming oneself and abandoning the hindrances. Meditation is not the tool for that.
Progress along the path is initiated by associating with noble disciples and hearing good dhamma (the suttas). The rest is automatic.
If you continue to hear good dhamma, your faith will grow and you will start to attend more wisely (yoniso manasikara). Once that starts happening you become more mindful, restrain the senses and do more good deeds. As a result the hinderances are replaced by the 4 foundations of mindfulness and the 7 factors of enlightenment, and so you find yourself practicing meditation and jhana.
It’s like when it rains heavily on a mountain top, and the water flows downhill to fill the hollows, crevices, and creeks. As they become full, they fill up the pools. The pools fill up the lakes, the lakes fill up the streams, and the streams fill up the rivers. And as the rivers become full, they fill up the ocean.That’s the fuel for the ocean, and that’s how it’s filled up.
In the same way, when the factor of associating with good people is fulfilled, it fulfills the factor of listening to the true teaching. When the factor of listening to the true teaching is fulfilled, it fulfills the factor of faith … proper attention … mindfulness and situational awareness … sense restraint …the three kinds of good conduct … the four kinds of mindfulness meditation … the seven awakening factors. When the seven awakening factors are fulfilled, they fulfill knowledge and freedom. That’s the fuel for knowledge and freedom, and that’s how it’s fulfilled.”
AN10.61
It is my understanding that in order to abandon the practice of meditation and jhana, you have to abandon being a lay Buddhist too. Instead you must associate with ignoble people and listen to untrue teachings.
This is where we can start to see how some of these ideas are showing their age. Of course no eight year old is qualified to look after themselves. And being raised by your patriarch is nice but no substitute for your biological father who up and left one day. And passing along their inheritance doesn’t cut it, otherwise we would say that social security benefits are a good backup parent for an absent father.
I thank you for your input. It seems consistent with the acceptable collateral position, because again at least the dad is getting enlightened. Sonny will just have to suck it up.
Unless we adopt the Mahayana position we can’t guattente that we will reach one stage and not pass directly to the next instead, so the risk of disturbing the natural family life exists.
This is not unlike the Sikh position which emphasizes lay life. I dont disagree.
When you get to higher Buddhist stages then you must renounce your family or die. Nanavira Thera is an excellent example of this. He committed suicide. This is the position i can’t accept.
Just wanted to follow up and advise i have pondered the question more and i think i understand better now the Buddhas rationale and thank you all for contributing.
)… but the traditional Indian solution has always been for people with gray hair to ceede their positions of authority to those younger than them (MN83). Hence the stress on Renunciation and Spirituality.