DN11, Five Aggregates, Vinanna Anidassana

Hiya, :slightly_smiling_face:

It seems you are much influenced by a particular interpretation of the suttas, and I think I can guess whose it is. That’s alright, of course. No problem. :+1: But for sake of discussion you may want to widen your reading a bit, because it isn’t a very standard interpretation afaik. And therefore, to simply post a sutta and say it’s all very clear, won’t achieve much, because people will generally interpret it in a different way. Anyway, here are some thoughts:

No, bhavāsava is the āsava, not bhava itself. This word is a compound where the relationship between bhava and āsava can be interpreted in various ways. It’s not likely to be a kammadharaya, which is a technical way of saying it doesn’t mean ‘bhava which is an āsava’. More likely it means ‘the āsava for/towards bhava’, ‘the defilement [aimed] towards existence’. On this, Sujato notes at MN4, “Bhavāsava is the defilement that craves to continue life in a new birth.” The continuance in a new birth is the bhava. Also:

This sutta too is generally interpreted differently. Ven. Bodhi notes at the similar AN3.76: “Bhava. What is meant is a concrete state of individual existence in one of the three realms.” And he notes that this sutta describes “the rebirth process”. That is also how Sujato interprets it, as you can see in the translation you quoted: “That’s how there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.”

The word for ‘new state of existence’ here is punabbhava, which means “a next bhava”, i.e., a new life. So this sutta doesn’t “make this relationship very clear”. It only does so when you start reading it with a certain interpretation already. To me it makes no sense to talk about “rebirth into a new becoming”.

The overall problem here is that bhava is never explicitly defined in the suttas. In that case we need to use context to determine it’s meaning. I haven’t seen any definite indications for it to mean some momentary becoming and many that indicate it to mean a life. The Ratana Sutta says, for example, that the stream winner will not have a eighth bhava. This clearly means an eighth life, not an eight “sense of the future” or eighth “wondering about what will be”.


Anyway, I’m not sure what this still has to do with this viññāáč‡a anidassana. Were you aware that Ven. Sujato just posted a short essay on this topic?

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