DN11, Five Aggregates, Vinanna Anidassana

This essay is to revisit this topic of vinanna anidassana in DN11 but more generally to look at the role of The Five Aggregates in the suttas.

TLDR:

The Five Aggregates (TFA) describe the faculties or capacities, attributes of the mind (citta). This is true regardless of whether your mind is defiled or undefiled. However, in the presence of the asavas (karmic tendencies, ignorance, becoming) they present themselves to the unawakened person as The Five Clinging Aggregates (FCA). FCA’s are subsequently conditioned by Sankharas.

Ignorance (the driving force behind Dependent Origination (DO)) is the underlying ‘glue’ that causes TFCA’s to bind-up with each other.

The simile of the rope appearing as a snake is an easy way to understand the relationship of The Five Aggregates to The Five Clinging Aggregates. The ‘snake’ appears because we fail to recognize that it is a rope. When the snake is discovered to be simply a piece of rope, the snake disappears but the rope is still a rope – it does not cease to exist along with the snake.

In the same way, in the presence of ignorance, The Five Aggregates (rope) appear as The Five Clinging Aggregates (snake) – that constantly bind-up with each other giving rise to ‘The All’. When ignorance ceases, ‘The All’ (snake) is simply seen to have been The Five Aggregates (rope) all along. The Five Aggregates (rope) do not cease to exist – rather they are no longer conditioned by the asavas.

What is the undefiled citta? As far as I know, the Buddha left it undefined.

The structure of this essay is as follows:

All Translations are Interpretations

Just looking at some Pali terms that will come up in this discussion.

How some Suttas Describe the Aggregates

Looking at sutta references that support the view outlined in the TLDR above. Specifically, that The Five Aggregates represent the five faculties of the mind (citta) - that in the presence of the assavas (ignorance, becoming, karmic tendencies) they become the Five Clinging Aggregates - which are then further conditioned by Sankharas.

In the absence of the asavas, dependent origination ceases taking with it the Five Clinging Aggregates - which only arise under the influence of the asavas. For something to arise in the presence of ignorance then there must be something that ignorance acts on and this is The Five Aggregates that for the Arahat have been abandoned, put down, scattered. These terms are used so as to describe that ‘done is what needs to be done’ - the five aggregates are no longer subject to being grasped and thus future arising of ‘the all’.

When consciousness (the fifth aggregate) is freed from name-and-form it no longer finds a footing on the other four aggregates. For the Arahat there is neither arising nor passing because consciousness no longer lands anywhere. Thus it is said to be un-established and non-manifestative.

Context of DN11

Does it point to the awakened experience of the Arahat? Or a monk looking for advice on how to practice the formless states?

Summary

Let’s Begin:

1) All Translations are Interpretations

Several Pali terms:

The following represents my understanding of these terms based on the Pali Text Society Dictionary and the Sutta Central dictionary. If you have more knowledge of Pali (almost everyone probably does) feel free to help me out.

uparujjhati: to be stopped, broken, annihilated, destroyed.

The term ‘uparujjhati’ is often used in the suttas with regard to the ceasing of consciousness. ‘Cease’ is a good translation because it also can be interpreted as ‘stopped’ (the motor stopped running) or ‘destroyed’ (the motor was destroyed).

Sujato:

there the cycle spins no more; (ettha vaṭṭaṁ na vattati;)
and there it is that name and form (Ettha nāmañca rūpañca,)
cease with nothing left over.” (asesaṁ uparujjhatī”ti.)

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Here that the round no longer revolves;
Here name-and-form ceases,
Stops without remainder.”

Which is it: stopped or destroyed? You will have to decide the meaning of uparajhati: does it mean that The Five Clinging Aggregates cease to exist entirely or does it mean that without the presence of the asavas that they revert to being The Five Aggregates - that are now scattered and abandoned (not subject to being picked up, grasped).

Nirodena: ceasing, cessation; the being no more; stopping, shutting off

Apacināti: diminishes, makes less; dismantles, does away with.

This term is used in SN22.79 with regard to how the Arahat relates to the five aggregates.
Here this term is translated by Ven. Sujato as ‘get rid of’:

This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up. They neither discard things nor amass them, but remain after discarding them. They neither dissipate things nor get clouded by them, but remain after dissipating them.”

In this section of this sutta it describes each of the five aggregates from the point of view of the Arahat. The phrase ‘getting rid of them’ doesn’t fit with the meaning of the other terms – it implies that they are no longer present. I think ‘dismantles’ is a better fit as Bhikkhu Bodhi shows:

Bhikkhu Bodhi translation:

“This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple who neither builds up nor dismantles, but who abides having dismantled; who neither abandons nor clings, but who abides having abandoned; who neither scatters nor amasses, but who abides having scattered; who neither extinguishes nor kindles, but who abides having extinguished.”

Think about it: If I tell you my car stopped working so I got rid of it and you went out back and saw the car sitting covered in weeds – wouldn’t you ask me something like: “Hey, I thought you told me you got rid of that thing”. But if I told you I abandoned it and you saw it out back – “Sure enough, he abandoned it”.

Anidassana:

The term nidassana is defined as: “pointing at” evidence, example, comparison, apposition, attribute, characteristic; sign. Another meaning given is ‘visible’.

So anidassana means something like ‘not pointing at/not able to point at (one of these terms) or alternatively ‘invisible’.

In MN21 We have an example of anidassana that clarifies the meaning more. In this sutta, the Buddha gives a number of similes describing how monks should remain basically imperturbable when confronted by others using abusive or challenging language.

He asks the monks:

“Suppose someone comes along with some colored markers and says ‘I will draw pictures in space, such that they appear there – is that possible?’ (Compare this with SN12.64)
Monks: “No”
Buddha: “Why is that?”
Monks: “Because empty space has no surface, no mark can be made there” (this is my translation).

Sujato’s translation:

Monks (answering the question ‘why is that?’):
“Because space is formless and invisible. [ Formless and invisible: arūpī anidassano ]

Note: If I ask you to take a pen and sign your name in the empty space in front of you, I don’t think you would say “I can’t, its invisible”. Considering the meaning of nidassana above, the term should be understood more like un-impressionable – as in nothing has an impact on it or nothing can make a mark on it. Than. Geoff translates it here as surface-less.

Monks (continued):

“It’s not easy to draw pictures there.
That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

This sutta points to the impurturbility of the mind of the Arahat – it’s kind of a ‘fake it until you make it’ teaching.

In SN43 the term is used as a synonym for the deathless (nibanna):

“Monks, I will also teach you the surfaceless (Sujato: invisible) and the path leading to the surfaceless…”

(Anidassanañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anidassanagāmiñca maggaṁ. Taṁ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anidassanaṁ…)

I am not sure why Ven. Sujato translates this term as ‘invisible’ because just a couple lines up both he and Than Geoff translate a line that describes the deathless as ‘hard to see’ – if something is invisible then you can’t see it no matter how hard you look.

This reference in SN43 is very important – because it links how the Arahat experiences the deathless with DN11’s use of the term as a modifier for the consciousness aggregate (as one of The Five Aggregates not as one of the Clinging Aggregates).

These translation issues may seem small but they add up and can shift the meaning away from the original text.

Sankharas: The act and consequence of identification with intent to create personal experience of pleasure through acts of body, speech and mind and the resulting construction. - Buddha Dust

2) How Some Suttas Describe the Aggregates

SN22.48 defines The Five Aggregates as well as The Five Clinging Aggregates (which come about in the presence of the asavas (karmic tendencies, becoming, ignorance). These are always present for the worldly person where they provide a landing place for consciousness - where as they are absent for the awakened person. The difference between the two is –the asavas:

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form [feeling, perception, choices, consciousness] there is, whether past, future, or present … far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form [etc.] aggregate subject to clinging.”

SN22.79
Describes:

  • How The Five Clinging Aggregates (that arise from the presence of the asavas are further conditioned by Sankharas.

Choices produce conditioned phenomena; that’s why they’re called ‘choices’. And what are the conditioned phenomena that they produce?
Form [Feeling…Perception…Choices…] are a conditioned phenomenon; choices [Sankharas] are what make it into form [etc.]. Consciousness is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into consciousness. Choices produce conditioned phenomena; that’s why they’re called ‘choices’.

  • How after Awakening, the Five Aggregates (Not Clinging!) are still present:

“This, monks, is called a disciple of the noble ones who neither builds up nor tears down, but who stands having torn down; who neither clings nor abandons, but who stands having abandoned; who neither pulls in nor discards, but who stands having discarded; who neither piles up nor scatters, but who stands having scattered.”

He neither builds up nor tears down form, …feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness, but stands having torn it down.

He neither clings to nor abandons form,…feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness, but stands having abandoned it.

He neither pulls in nor discards form, …feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness, but stands having discarded it.

He neither piles up nor scatters form, …feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness, but stands having scattered it.

If vinanna or any of the other Five Aggregates had ceased to exist then clearly the Buddha would just tell us that. In the absence of the assavas conciousness no longer lands on Name and Form spinning out ‘the All’. That is, the rope no longer appears as a snake. They are simply the five faculties of the mind.

With ending of the assavas, consciousness is stilled, it is freed:

SN22.53

“Apart from form, feeling, perception, and choices, I will describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity.’ That is not possible.

If a mendicant has given up greed for the form element,…feeling….perception…choices…consciousness element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.

Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.”

SN22.54

“Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. [Repeats for feelings, perceptions, fabrications, consciousness ]
“If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. …

SN 22.47

The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed noble disciple abandons ignorance and arouses true knowledge.

SN22.99

But the instructed noble disciple … no longer keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he no longer keeps running and revolving around them, he is freed from form, freed from feeling, freed from perception, freed from volitional formations, freed from consciousness.

AN 10.81

“Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives unattached, liberated, his mind free of limits.
What ten?
Form …feeling …perception… choices…consciousness (five aggregates)
rebirth …old age …death …suffering …defilements …

Consciousness does not cease (to exist) - it is freed. Freed from what? Name-and-Form. That is to say: It is un-established and non-manifestative.

Note: There are additional sutta references more context) at the end of this essay.

3) Context of DN11

A) Where does the term vinanna anidassana occur in DN11?

It may not be immediately obvious but many suttas have a specific structure that follows a general pattern that can be summed up by “I teach suffering and the end of suffering”. That is, most suttas start with the problem of suffering, proceed to discussion of the path, and end with awakening.

Some will then go on to add a section about the nature of the awakened state. If we want to understand the context of a term we can look in several suttas where that term appears and see which section it falls under.

In DN 11 the section where the troublesome verse appears, and the story about our traveling monk, and the simile of the ship and the bird, and the Buddhas rephrasing of the question – all appear after the section on awakening.

Further more, the very closely related term unestablished consciousness (appatiṭṭhita viññāṇa) also follows at or after awakening in both suttas in which it appears: SN22.53, SN12.38.

Summary: Both terms ‘non-manifestative consciousness’ and ‘unestablished consciousness’ appear in their respective discourses at or after the section on awakening.

B) The Traveling Monk and the Land Seeking Bird (DN11):

The Traveling Monk: In this story a monk wants to know where form comes to an end without remainder so using his psychic powers he travels to many different realms – each time asking his question and then being directed to somewhere else until he reaches the highest level (the Brahma realm) where ultimately Brahma admits he doesn’t know the answer and sends him to the Buddha.

It is very common in the suttas to find a teaching which is then followed by a simile to further clarify what the teaching is telling us. Immediately following the monk story is:

The simile of the ship and the bird seeking land: A ship on the ocean when seeking land sends out a bird. If the bird finds a suitable place to land it doesn’t return, indicating to the ships crew that the bird has found a place to land. If the bird does not find land it simply returns to the ship.

The Buddha is using this simile to tell us what the monk story means: That this monk desiring to find an answer to his question keeps moving from one realm to the next seeking an answer. When none can be found he is sent to the Buddha (the fully awakened one that wanders (Samsara-ing) no more). This is about the movement of consciousness when bound up with name and form – jumping from one place to the next – landing here, then there, endlessly searching.

If the bird finds a place to land, it stays there. This is describing how consciousness - if it finds a firm place to land - just stays there until that place no longer of interest and then moves on to another spot – this is the arising and passing of phenomena experienced by a worldly person and the monk, being a worldly person, jumps from one realm to another.

Does this simile fit the dimension of infinite consciousness? The problem with infinite consciousness in this context:

The dimension of infinite consciousness is just a label describing what it feels like - that is how it is experienced by the one practicing it. The dimension of infinite consciousness is fabricated. That is, it provides a footing on which consciousness lands. The consciousness aggregate of a worldly person that is dwelling in this attainment has landed on it and used it as their object of meditation – the simile of the bird does not fit.

Summary: This story and its simile describe the Arising and Passing of the worldly persons consciousness compared to non-landing, non-establishing of the consciousness faculty of the Arahat.

C) Then the Buddha Rephrases the Question:

“Where do water and earth,
fire and air find no footing?
Where do long and short,
fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly;
where do name and form
cease with nothing left over?”

As the first four lines simply refer to name and form, the question can simply be restated as:

“Where do name and form cease with nothing left over?”

Note1: The word being translated in DN11 and elsewhere here as ‘footing’ is ‘gādhati ’ - my Pali isn’t great but according to the dictionary it means: “to stand fast, to be on firm ground, to have a firm footing.”

You aren’t going to step somewhere if you can’t find firm footing. We could also call it insufficient footing. Insufficient for what? Insufficient for consciousness to land there and grow. If consciousness has no place to land and grow then it can’t become established, nor can it give rise to ‘the all’.

Note2: These two similar terms: un-established consciousness and non-manifestative consciousness are describing the same nature of consciousness when it is freed from the defilements. Un-established because it doesn’t land and non-manifestative because having no place to land it doesn’t give rise to ‘the All’.

D) The Buddha’s answer to the rephrasing of the monks question:

Non-manifestative consciousness, endless, bright, radiant

One answer, same as in SN1.27, Ud1.10, and SN7.6

Summary

Ven Sujato’s reasoning (as I understand it):
  1. He feels that this represents two separate questions with two separate answers.

    Note: SN1.27 has a similar verse containing three questions with one answer regarding the same topic and Ven. Sujato translates it that way. SN1.27 does not contain the term ‘vinanna’. In other words he has in at least one other sutta translated similar verse without having to resort to breaking the verse into separate questions – so not strong support for this.

  2. He infers that the word order of the verse that includes “vinanana annidassana anantam…” is this way because it is verse and that ‘anantam’ (infinite, endless) should apply to ‘vinanna’ – (such word order changes is found in Pali verse so there is some support for this view. I agree that word order does not significantly alter the meaning but it can introduce a ‘red herring’ that throws us off track.

  3. He infers that the first question is about the dimension of infinite consciousness and the second is about nibanna. Support is based on 2.

  4. He infers that the monk (because he uses his psychic powers to travel to the different realms) must be seeking advice on how to practice the formless attainments. Presumably this inference is based on 3 which is based on 2. There is no evidence in the sutta that this monk does not know the formless attainments. No support.

  5. He infers that the second question is about nibanna. There is strong support that the entire verse is about nibanna as we shall see.

“Privileging the Hypothesis is the fallacy of singling out a particular hypothesis for attention when there is insufficient evidence already in hand to justify such special attention.”- source

“Narrative fallacy addresses our limited ability to look at sequences of facts without weaving an explanation into them, or, equivalently, forcing a logical link, an arrow of relationship upon them. Explanations bind facts together. They make them all the more easily remembered; they help them make more sense. Where this propensity can go wrong is when it increases our impression of understanding.” - source

My Reasoning:
  1. Location of the term vinanna anidassana follows the section on awakening in DN11

  2. The term ‘anidassana’ is used in SN 43 as a synonym for the unconditioned.

  3. The Traveling Monk story and the Land Seeking Bird simile both follow the awakening section and precede the Buddhas rephrasing of the question and both are being used to point to ‘no firm footing’ on which consciousness can land.

  4. The Buddhas rephrasing of the question directly relates to the monk story, the simile and is supported by multiple suttas. In other words: The important question is not where Form ends but rather where consciousness no longer lands, where it gains no footing.

  5. The Buddha’s answer to the rephrasing of the monks question where he asks where does form come to an end is Where does name and form no longer give rise to suffering – and nibanna is the answer and it is just this knowing faculty of mind that knows this.

  6. There are at least three suttas (SN1.27, Ud1.10, and SN7.6 ) which state that name and form completely come to an end with awakening. Remember that it was Buddha that brought in name. Name-and-form within the context of dependent origination form a complex – that is the aggregates are said to be ‘built up’ – they provide a landing place for consciousness. Remember that for the Arahat there is neither arising (manifesting) nor passing.

  7. I have included about a dozen sutta references to support the view that The Five Aggregates do not cease with the ending of dependent origination. I have shown that the Arahat is aware of all five but now they are no longer a cause of suffering as they are not capable any longer of being grasped.

Conclusion:

The Five Aggregates represent the nature of the mind – it describes the faculties of the mind – how the mind ‘knows and sees’. For the worldly unawakened person these five faculties are conditioned by ignorance and they appear to one as distinct graspable ‘things’. That is, the consciousness conditioned by ignorance (I am the thinker) identifies with the phenomena (what is seen, heard, thought, etc) as me or mine or not me, not mine. Because of this mis-identification, when these ‘things’ change (as they must – being essentially a snap-shot of the flow of phenomena) there is suffering. This is described as the arising and passing (of ‘things’) when consciousness lands on and then leaves one ‘footing’ after another (arising and passing). When the hold of ignorance finally loses its power over us, then the five clinging aggregates cease without remainder (no more objectification- papancha) because the five faculties of the mind are no longer conditioned by ignorance (neither arising nor passing).

Are there no references to vinanna in the suttas outside of dependent origination? If they are dismissed whenever they are encountered then no. But if we look at the context of these references that are there, and we see how other suttas reinforce these references then we find that yes, but the nature of that consciousness is not conditioned by the asavas, by ignorance. For the Arahat there is neither arising nor passing because the knowing (vinanna) faculty of the Arahat never ‘lands’ anywhere. It never leaves the ship. Conditioned consciousness (Clinging Aggregate) comes to an end with the cessation of dependent origination – references to it won’t be found outside of that context.

But why so few references to this non-manifestative consciousness and other related terms? Consider The Handful of Leaves sutta (SN56.31): The Buddha states that what he knows is equivalent to the leaves in the surrounding forest, but what he teaches is equivalent to a few leaves in his hand:

“This is stress … This is the origination of stress … This is the cessation of stress … This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress”.

Why not add in a bunch more leaves from the forest? Because those leaves will have no meaning to a worldly person and an Arahat needs to abandon the raft – leave the teachings behind - anyway. So why put such a demand on a precious resource (the sangha that has to commit these teachings to memory for generations to come) to record something that no one needs to know? This is why there are lots of references to consciousness ceasing/stopping for a worldly person – that is the target audience.

Some Thoughts:

Is ‘vinanna anidassana’ nibanna? I think it is the knowing faculty of the mind of an Arahat that has realized nibanna. Is it ‘vinanna anidassana’? – no, that’s just a couple of words, a label. It points to the fact that an Arahat knows – you know – stuff. Call it what ever you want. But that is what DN11 is about. It is not about the dimension of infinite consciousness. If you know stuff then there must be some way of knowing. Kind of obvious. Can you separate the knowing faculty from what it knows? I don’t know. Seems like they kind of go together like peanut butter and jelly. And yet knowing and what is known can certainly be distinguished.

Additional Sutta Resources for Section 2 Above

SN22.53

Apart from form, feeling, perception, and choices, I will describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity.’ That is not possible.

If a mendicant has given up greed for the form element,…feeling….perception…choices…consciousness element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.

Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.

Tadappatiṭṭhitaṁ viññāṇaṁ avirūḷhaṁ anabhisaṅkhacca vimuttaṁ.

SN 12.38

The term here is unestablished consciousness (appatiṭṭhita viññāṇa) (also see SN 12.53)

“But when one doesn’t intend, arrange, or obsess (about anything), there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support [footing?] there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn’t land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.”

SN 12.64

“Where there is passion, delight, & craving for the nutriment of consciousness, consciousness lands there and increases. Where consciousness lands and increases, there is the alighting of name-&-form. Where there is the alighting of name-&-form, there is the growth of fabrications. Where there is the growth of fabrications, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. …

Where there is no passion for the nutriment of consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future……

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?”
“On the western wall, lord.”
“And if there is no western wall, where does it land?”
“On the ground, lord.”
“And if there is no ground, where does it land?”
“On the water, lord.”
“And if there is no water, where does it land?”
“It does not land, lord.”

“In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food… contact… intellectual intention… consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future.”

SN 22.47

The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed noble disciple abandons ignorance and arouses true knowledge. With the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, ‘I am’ does not occur to him; ‘I am this’ does not occur to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these do not occur to him.”

SN22.54

“Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

[Repeats for feelings, perceptions, fabrications, consciousness ]

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. …

SN22.99

But the instructed noble disciple … does not regard form as self … nor feeling as self … nor perception as self … nor volitional formations as self … nor consciousness as self…. He no longer keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he no longer keeps running and revolving around them, he is freed from form, freed from feeling, freed from perception, freed from volitional formations, freed from consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.”

AN 10.81

“Sir, how many things has the Realized One escaped from, so that he lives unattached, liberated, his mind free of limits?”

“Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives unattached, liberated, his mind free of limits.

What ten?

Form …feeling …perception… choices…consciousness (five aggregates)
rebirth …old age …death …suffering …defilements …

Suppose there was a blue water lily, or a pink or white lotus. Though it sprouted and grew in the water, it would rise up above the water and stand with no water clinging to it. [Note: the water didn’t cease to exist]

In the same way, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives unattached, liberated, his mind free of limits.”

And this I tell you, is the end of this essay

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Thank you for a good essay. I enjoyed reading it.

May I ask the following questions?

Q1: When an enlightened person sees with wisdom that his defilements are destroyed (or eradicated/stopped/broken/annihilated/ceased), does the term “anidassana” (invisible) apply to these defilements? And why (or why not)?

Q2: Defilements and Consciousness, are they both conditioned dhamma? If defilements can be destroyed, how can consciousness not be destroyed but instead just “anidassana” (invisible)?

Q3: Take a famous example with fire, can we say such thing as: ‘when the fuel is no more, the fire is “anidassana” (invisible)’? or even something more headache like ‘when the fuel is “anidassana” (invisible), the fire is “anidassana” (invisible)’?

Q4: Finally, even more famous example with dukkha, can we say such thing as: ‘when ignorance is no more, dukkha is “anidassana” (invisible)’? or even something more headache like ‘when ignorance is “anidassana” (invisible), dukkha is “anidassana” (invisible)’?

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If we are trying to figure out whether the verse in DN11 is referring to either of the two

  1. Nibbana with residue - as the absence of greed, anger & delusion in the mind of an arahant, but wherein the faculties by which the arahant experiences pleasure & pain remain unimpaired.
  2. Advice on how to practice the formless states

If so then, as i see it, we have a false dichotomy where a rigorous debate is taking place between two wrong interpretations, and where the true interpretation is excluded from consideration.

The true interpretation, according to me, being that the verse is proclaiming the asankhatadhatu, as that which is not included in the allness of the all, the unmade, the ayatana where there is neither this world nor the next, no coming or going, neither form nor the formless, unsupported, unevolving, the end of dukkha.

“anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbatopabhaṁ”: viññāṇa shines everywhere, without limit, without distinction.

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Good questions.

Q1: When an enlightened person sees with wisdom that his defilements are destroyed (or eradicated/stopped/broken/annihilated/ceased), does the term “anidassana” (invisible) apply to these defilements? And why (or why not)?

When the snake is seen to be a rope does the snake become invisible? The term anidassana with respect to the aggregate of consciousness means that this consciousness does not become entangled with anything - not getting entangled, the defilements are unable to arise.

Q2: Defilements and Consciousness, are they both conditioned dhamma? If defilements can be destroyed, how can consciousness not be destroyed but instead just “anidassana” (invisible)?

Consciousness as a clinging aggregate is conditioned by asavas (lets just simplify and say ignorance). Defilements like greed and hatred are conditioned by that fundamental ignorance - ‘I am the thinker’ - but further conditioned by likes, dislikes (karmic tendencies), feelings, etc.

With the cessation of ignorance, then greed and hatred will disintegrate into the constituant aggregates - for example, feelings and thinking. In other words, once we see that the snake is just a rope then there is just a rope.

This is how I understand “there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, … only the cognized in reference to the cognized”. What was greed is seen to be just a flow of feelings, thoughts, sights, etc. The Five Aggregates remain each simply as they are - in and of themselves. So consciousness absent ignorance (I am…) is just knowing. Knowing thoughts, knowing feelings, knowing seeing, etc. but knowing without landing without entangling itself.

Q3: Take a famous example with fire, can we say such thing as: ‘when the fuel is no more, the fire is “anidassana” (invisible)’? or even something more headache like ‘when the fuel is “anidassana” (invisible), the fire is “anidassana” (invisible)’?

When the snake is seen to be a rope where did the snake go? If stress and suffering arise with ignorance and ignorance ceases where did the stress go?

Q4: Finally, even more famous example with dukkha, can we say such thing as: ‘when ignorance is no more, dukkha is “anidassana” (invisible)’? or even something more headache like ‘when ignorance is “anidassana” (invisible), the fire is “anidassana” (invisible)’?

I would go with ‘with the cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of dukkha’. Anidassana is describing why ignorance and dukkha have ceased.

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This is what I am referring to as well. ‘The All’ ceases with the cessation of ignorance - the end of dependent origination. The residue is just the faculties of the mind that sense the physical body - the coals remaining. Not bad when previously the whole world was on fire.

Namo Buddhaya!

When you say ‘the all ceases with the cessation of ignorance’ this needs explaining because

  • The all is defined in the sutta as the eye & forms, ear & sounds, tongue & tastes, nose & aromas, as body & sensations, and intellect & ideas.
  • The arahant has no ignorance
  • The arahant is not without the eye & forms, ear & sounds, tongue & tastes, nose & aromas, body & sensations, intellect & ideas.

If the all ceased with the cessation of ignorance it would follow that the arahant is without these things.

Therefore your statement ‘the all ceases with the cessation of ignorance’ needs more explaining as to the meaning of it.

Consider this,

The truth & reality which is unmade neither arises nor ceases whereas the mind of an arahant is wholly constructed and impermanent.

The only connection between the unmade and the minds of beings is that the discernment of the unmade is effectively a destruction of taints and cessation attainments occur in dependence on it.

The discernment of the constructed-feeling-states such as dreams, perceptions of sensuality, mundane perceptions or the formless perceptions, these perceptions and the objects of these perceptions, were generated in the past, are generated in the present, or will be generated in the future.

For example the feeling-states of seeing of ‘blue’, and that in dependence on which these occur; all that has occured, is occuring or will occur; all that has been generated, is generated or will be generated.

Therein

  • The eye was, is, or will be generated.

  • The form ‘blue’ was, is or will be generated.

  • The eye-consciousness was, is, or will be generated.

  • As to that which has been in the past, the term ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or ‘will be’.

  • As to that which is in the present, the term ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or ‘will be’

  • As to that which will be in the future, the term ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or ‘is’.

Therefore in as far as past, present and future discernment of ‘blue’, for this or that being, it will be different and it will occur in dependence on different things.

This is unlike the destruction of taints occuring in dependence on the unmade element.

In as far as there a destruction of taints occuring in dependence on the unmade element, for this or that being, it will occur in dependence on one & same truth-reality which is the unmade.

In as far as beings, past, present, or future, will abide in a cessation of perception & feeling, all these cessations will occur in dependence on the very same element which is the unmade.

Likewise all beings who attain destruction of taints, past, present, or future; attain it by seeing with wisdom the very same unconstructed truth-reality.

By this line of reasoning it can be shown that the minds of the arahants are many but there is only one unmade.

The All is manyfold - the unmade is one.
The constructed is manyfold - the unmade is one.
The dukkha is manyfold - that in dependence on which the cessation of dukkha occurs is one.

It is very important to realize how special this is and it is very easy to miss

One might say

All beings who see ‘blue’ do so in dependence on the same ‘blue’. This is not so. In as far there is talk about the conditioned, it is never the same thing occuring and the conditions for it’s occurence-discernment are always different because the constructed changes as it persists.

Example 1

Suppose you extinguish a log-fire by pouring water on monday and you extinguish a log-fire by pouring on a tuesday.

Here the fires are not the same and that in dependence on what extinguishment occurs is also not the same.

There is fire1 extinguished by water1 and fire2 being extinguished by water2.

Example 2

Suppose you meet two men, man1 and man2, both ignorant as to what your name is. There is then ignorance1 and ignorance2.

Now suppose you take man1 aside and tell him your name, now ignorance1 is dispelled in dependence on your speaking and his listening.

Later you take man2 aside and tell him your name, now ignorance2 is dispelled in dependence on your speaking and his listening.

Here ignorance1 is dispelled by speaking1 & listening1; and ignorance2 is dispelled by speaking2 & listening2.

Even if you were to tell them your name at the same time, their listening is differentiated; ignorance1 will be dispelled by listening1; and ignorance2 will be dispelled by listening2.

All these examples are describing changes in the constructed in as far as it persists.

Now consider this

If in the future, your taints are removed by a seeing with discernment, that will occur in dependence on the unconstructed1.

In the past, Sariputtas taints were removed by a seeing with discernment, that occured in dependence on the exact same unconstructed1.

By this line of reasoning it can be shown that the unmade has nothing to do with the minds of beings, unmade is a truth & reality whether it is dicerned or not, it is independent of there being arahants.

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Thank you for your answers. I am trying to summarize what you said below:

In summary, you are telling me this kind of chain reaction (with symbol “→” denotes the verb “conditions”):

[likes, dislikes (karmic tendencies), feelings, etc. + ignorance] → greed and hatred → (clinging) consciousness

And here is the cessation of that chain reaction (with the strikethrough denotes “cessation”):

  1. [likes, dislikes (karmic tendencies), feelings, etc. + ignorance] → greed and hatred

  2. greed and hatred(clinging) consciousness

Put back into words again:

  1. Cessation of ignorance conditions cessation of greed and hatred

  2. Cessation of greed and hatred conditions cessation of clinging consciousness

As you seems to say in your essay: cessation of clinging consciousness is anidassana consciousness.

In other words, from (2) above, we have:
anidassana consciousness is conditioned by cessation of greed and hatred.

Therefore:
anidassana consciousness is a conditioned dhamma.

However:
All conditioned things will be inevitably destroyed.

Conclusion:
anidassana consciousness will also be inevitably destroyed.

Do you agree with such conclusion?

Namo Buddhaya!

I want to emphasise that what i am getting at is that the referent of the D11 verse is definitely not an aspect of an arahant’s mind, nor a mind’s quality or classification. But it is that in dependence on what the mind is purified and in dependence on what the cessation attainments occur.

I hold that the verse is a proclamation of the same ayatana as is proclaimed in U8.1

There is, bhikkhus, that ayatana where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

D11 verse speaks of a ‘where consciousness is brought to an end’. Obviously the end of suffering is just that, where these things are brought to an end.

I am inclined to take the D11 verse to read as:

‘There is that ayatana where consciousness is not apparent [doesn’t appear; is not-demonstrable], luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.’

It could as i see it rightly be modified merging the two excerpts

“There is, bhikkhus, that ayatana where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; luminous all around; there consciousness is not apparent: no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul, name & form, are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end. Just this is the end of suffering.”

The only question is could “vinnana anidassana” be a name rather than a descriptive quality. In this case we would get;

“There is, bhikkhus, that ayayana, called Consciousness Anidassana; where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; luminous all around: no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul, name & form, are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end. Just this is the end of suffering.”

It runs into inconsistencies because consciousness is defined as the six classes of consciousness, name & form is it’s requisite condition: form is one end, name is the other end, and consciousness is in the middle. And the verse itself would then speak of a cessation of consciousness but describing it as a type of consciouness.

One could entertain that it is not so that The Blessed One describes as consciousness only the six classes of consciousness but that wherever there is consciousness & in whatever terms consciousness is discerned, that he describes as consciousness.

This is analogical to describing the cessation of feeling as pleasant, saying that there is a pleasure where nothing is felt.

One would have to say that this is then a consciousness not included in the consciousness aggregate, not found among past, present or future consciousnesses.

This would work but was it intended? I do not see a substantial advantage to this method and therefore i favor the former reading. However both interpretations are agreeable to me when thus explained.

I think that the former reading is more agreeable to annihilationists and the latter more agreeable to eternalists, and that it makes little to no difference to those who understand what is being spoken of.

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The all is defined in the sutta as the eye & forms, ear & sounds, tongue & tastes, nose & aromas, as body & sensations, and intellect & ideas.
The arahant has no ignorance
The arahant is not without the eye & forms, ear & sounds, tongue & tastes, nose & aromas, body & sensations, intellect & ideas.
If the all ceased with the cessation of ignorance it would follow that the arahant is without these things.

In SN35.23 we have:
“The Blessed One said, “What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All…”

Assumption: The Buddha is freed from ignorance, the audience is not.

In terms of the snake and rope simile, the Buddha is telling the audience that what appears as a snake is actually just a rope. The Loka suttas are also relevant such as SN12.44

The truth & reality which is unmade neither arises nor ceases whereas the mind of an arahant is wholly constructed and impermanent.

What leads you to this conclusion? This maybe is something we could discuss more as I don’t see that as being the case.

The only connection between the unmade and the minds of beings is that the discernment of the unmade is effectively a destruction of taints and cessation attainments occur in dependence on it.

When you say ‘minds of beings’ are you also refering to the mind of the Arahat?

Likewise all beings who attain destruction of taints, past, present, or future; attain it by seeing with wisdom the very same unconstructed truth-reality.

I agree.

By this line of reasoning it can be shown that the minds of the arahants are many but there is only one unmade.

Hmm, not really willing to go there. I think it is getting to speculative for me.

The All is manyfold - the unmade is one.
The constructed is manyfold - the unmade is one.
The dukkha is manyfold - that in dependence on which the cessation of
dukkha occurs is one.

Agree

It is very important to realize how special this is and it is very easy to miss

This is outside the scope of this essay.

Suppose you meet two men … and ignorance2 will be dispelled by listening2.
All these examples are describing changes in the constructed in as far as it persists.

I agree

By this line of reasoning it can be shown that the unmade has nothing to do with the minds of beings, unmade is a truth & reality whether it is dicerned or not, it is independent of there being arahants.

I never said it was. I think I have covered the main issues aside from where I ask for some clarification. Let me know if I missed something.

Oh sorry, no - that is just my style of writing - a way to separate phrases. For a chain of events or actions I tend to use ‘>’. (examples intended)

Does that change the questions you had?

Namo Buddhaya!

There are three characteristics defining the unconstructed;

  1. No arising is discerned.
  2. No disappearance is discerned.
  3. No change while it persists is discerned.

As to that which is called mind-intellect-consciousness, by which one experiences pleasant & unpleasant things, this is impermanent and is changing as it persists; by day & by night it arises as one thing and ceases as another, that for as long as fuel for existence remains.

Manocittavinnana is dukkha, even when it is rid of delusion. An arahant is not without it.

It is somewhat common to see people interpret the unconditioned as a quality of an arahant’s mind. What they will be getting at is that the arahant’s mind, having turned away from conditioning/constructing of a consequent birth, is therefore ‘unconditioned’.

The passages like ‘there is that ayatana where neither this world nor the next…’ these are then interpreted as referring to the arahant’s not having craving, neither for this world nor the next, neither for form nor for the formless, them having thus abandoned all craving for being [bhava].

These people miss the point, because they will describe a cessation of the constructed as a change in the constructed.

In other words, they hold that the world will change thus: having been with an arahant’s consciousness, the world will become without an arahant’s consciousness.

This is an annihilation of constructed in the constructed, a discerned change in the constructed as it persists.

Exactly as the fire simile, there is burning in the world, the world changes with the extinguishment of the fire, having been with fire the world becomes without.

In the exact same way they think about the parinibbana of an arahant;

The world was with the constructed which can be grasped with wrong view to be personal for the arahant, and it becomes without these things due to their extinguishment. Thus there is a cessation of constructed in the constructed due to the special quality of an arahant’s mind namely the unconditioned which is their having turned away from conditioning/constructing of a consequent birth due to lack of clinging.

The issue with this view is that there is nothing particularly unmade about it. It doesn’t describe a cessation of the made as the unmade in any sense other than the arahant’s existemce being annihilated and future existence not being made due to a lack of clinging.

As it actually is, it describes the made as the unmade and merely talks about a change in the made as it persists.

Alternatively they might say that the extinguishment of an arahant’s existence is the unmade, but that is in a sense that the extinguishment of a fire is an unmade fire, or they might say that a lack of fuel in a fire is an unmade and they should admit it.

This is a pernicious wrong view and it can be very difficult to give up.

I like the following interpretation and simile.

The mind is like the ocean.

The mind/ocean has two aspects.

A. It has an aspect or element that cannot be seen arising, ceasing and changing. This is like an peaceful empty stillness. Like a ground. It is never absent. It shows no movement. Here it is a oneness. In the sutta’s this is refered to as an ultimate emptiness , the unconditioned, the stilling of all formations, cessation, Nibbana. Cessation is not nothing.

The Buddha also refers to this as Tathagata. The Tathagata is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable as the ocean. This aspect or element of mind is space-like, it cannot be identified as this or that because it has no characteristics. That is its emptiness. At the same time, it is not a mere emptiness, it also has an aspect of clarity, i.e. the ability to become aware of things, and it is able to manifest things without hindrance. These things are not local. At this level one cannot speak of the mind of a being or even a being. This depth, the Tathagata, is beyond any bhava.

B. Besides this the mind has a surface, waves, an aspect or element of movement, formations arising and ceasing.

For the ignorant mind only waves, formations, arising and ceasing are seen. It is obsessed with formations. Like moving things also get immediately the attention of the physical eye, likewise, arising formations in the mind tend to get immediately attention of the mental eye. It is just how nature works. It inclines towards movement.

Buddha’s aim

Buddha’s teachings 1. make us aware that there are those two aspects or elements in our lifes. Not one aspect. Not only arising and ceasing and change.
2. With all his skills as teachers he tries to remedy our usual obsession with what is seen arising and ceasing. Otherwise we cannot awaken to the other aspect, the depth, the Tathagata.

We are too obsessed with, and involved in the waves or surface noise of the mind. While these are only its projections. It like mind all the time grasps at it own projections. If you look in meditation, direct, you can see that when mind starts to grasp arising ideas, thoughts, plans, mental images etc is start conceiving and tends to get lost in that. Absorbed in that. Absorbed in conceivings is feels very real and it becomes our world as it were. The moment the mind start conceiving and gets lost in it, it has made a home of the head. But the head is not the home of the mind. It took time to see this but i do not doubt this anymore. Passion causes that one makes the head ones home.

And while in the midst of all this conceivings, one experiences that as ones reality. While it is only the mind grasping at her own projections. A kind of story telling. One can due to anger start conceiving how bad a person is, and it feels very real, but at the same time one can drop all this immediately, cut it at the root and there is nothing real about it anymore. It is like one has left a dream. Being lost in conceiving is like dreaming.

I am quit sure that in fact the brain is very demanding and distorting and it is due to passion we end up in our heads. While so lost in conceivings and with so much love and attention for formations, at the same time the empty stilness, the inner peace, that what is not seen arising, ceasing and changing is fully ignored. It is even like it does not exist anymore. But that is nonsense.

The nutrition of avijja

Ignoring what is most self-evident for us, is what ignorance grows/feeds upon. Upon neutral feeling which are most common or self-evident. Also stillness, peace, emptiness, that aspect of our lifes that is not seen arising and ceasing and changing is most self-evident. It is due to the self-evidency of inner silence, peace, emptiness, Nibbana that we do not see it, ignore it, do not feel that it is deep, special.

All teachings, i believe, are only skillful means to awaken us and to guide us to the stillness, the emptiness, the depth that is allready present and is ignored in so many lifes. Ignored not because Nibbana was absent any moment, but the peace and unburdeness of Nibbana has always been the most self-evident aspect in our lifes. That is why it is not seen. There is nothing more common, more self-evident, more close to us, known to us, then Nibbana.

So, now you are all convinced and Green-ones :slight_smile:

This is a good example of ascribing the qualities of the unmade to something made.

The mind that was in the past, is ceased, the word ‘was’ applies to it, not the word is or will be. The future doesn’t yet exist, it will arise and so the future consciousness is known to arise.

It doesn’t matter if it is incorporeal & hidden, it’s arising & change are evident in that pleasant & unpleasant feelings cognized by the mind change.

If you assert that the same mind persists through time then this sides with eternalism.

You can talk about the weather in the same way.

Saying that there is an unchanging & unseen weather element underlying all past, present & future surfacing perceptions of the wind, or the rain, or the heat, or the cold.

Weather changes as it persists, likewise consciousness is changing as it persists, this is how one should think about it. There is nothing unconditioned about this pile of constructed phenomena.

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It seems to me that you are equating knowing with the flow of phenomena. That knowing arises and passes away even for the Arahat. I don’t see that this is consistent with what the Suttas are saying - what Green is saying is much more consistent with my understanding as well. But to each his own.

Maybe we can take this in smaller chunks:
Ud8.4

One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no yearning. There being no yearning, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

How do you understand the above in relation to what you are saying in your post?

I believe that the nature of mind is not a bhava, and so it is also beyond time and space. Meaning it is unestablished, unsupported. While it is beyond time and space it also cannot be called eternal.
The nature of mind is also no Atta.

Mind is a very interesting idea. But what is mind? Where does it refer to?
I feel, later buddhims has felt the need to give this more attention. Not that it deviates from the sutta’s but it is not given much specific attention in tje sutta’s.

’ Mind’ almost always referes to formations, arising and ceasing, stream of moments of specific kinds of awareness. Or emotions, thoughts etc. But that is, according later buddhist, only an aspect of the mind. The movement aspect. The mind has also that element or aspect of peace, non-movement, stillness, emptiness. That is also in EBT ofcourse. The descent into emptiness is, ofcourse, a descent into the empty stilled nature of mind. Then one starts to see mind is not the same as formations. No moments of sounds (no ear-vinnana), no moments of tactile sensations (body-vinnana), no tendencies arising, not emotions, thoughts, ideas, plans etc. This is the cessation of the constant changing stream of the 6 sense vinnana’s ofcourse. Those moments blind us for what mind really is. Vinnana is surface noise and does not reveal what mind is. That is how i tend to see this. Now i am going to sit and meditate.

I do not say that. There is the conditioned and unconditioned aspect or element in our lifes or Life.

There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right. [Visuddhimagga]

Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There’s the convention ‘a being.’

It’s only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases. [Vajira Sutta]

Yes phenomena alone flow on but these are not the same phenomena flowing on.

Blessed One said to him, “Is it true, Sāti, that this pernicious view has arisen in you — ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another’?”

“Exactly so, lord. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another.”

“Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?”

“This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions.”

“And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven’t I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, ‘Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness’? But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering.” [Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta]

“But, indeed, that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as one thing and ceases as another. Just as, monks, a monkey in the mountain-side forests, moving itself, grasps a branch, then releasing that, grasps another, then releasing that, grasps another; even so, indeed, monks, that which is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’: that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases. [Asuttavā Sutta]

"Bhikkhus, there are these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins.

What three?

"Whatever form, bhikkhus, has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

"Whatever feeling …
Whatever perception …
Whatever formations …

description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

"Whatever form, bhikkhus, has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

"Whatever feeling …
Whatever perception …
Whatever formations …

Whatever consciousness has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

"Whatever form, bhikkhus, has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

"Whatever feeling …
Whatever perception …
Whatever formations …

Whatever consciousness has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

"These, bhikkhus, are the three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins. [ Nirutti-Patha Sutta]

Do you assert that there are many minds like this or just one?

In other words do you think that this a single ‘mind’ underlying the realities of the various beings?

Also from the Visuddhimagga, on the same point;

“Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single consciousness;
By one who knows not these three things
Development is not obtained.
“Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single consciousness;
By one who does know these three things
Development can be obtained.”