DN11, Five Aggregates, Vinanna Anidassana

Essays
21

Mind must not be reified because it is not a thing. If i say there is just one mind, than i reify mind and give it boundaries. I am not gonna do that.

What i believe that can be seen is: That there is a moment that reality is not yet established. A moment of complete openess and emptiness. The reality… “I am a human being, I am the body, I am vinnana, I am this or that, or even I am, or I am here and there” is not yet establised.
These are always ideas that are establised due to grasping and conceiving.

So, the unestablised reality is, as it were, never absent. Indeed, it is, as it were, underlying all existence, underlying any bhava, but overlooked.
Due to grasping we live in a conceived world, a world of ideas, views, images. That is how our reality becomes establised.

It is like we have no contact/feeling anymore fo the openess, the unestablised reality, the signless, desireless, uninclined. The reality in which things have no name, no sign, no subjective meaning yet.
It is like we have lost a sense of the total openess of the mind. A situation in which not all is filled in yet.

But i feel this can be seen.

22

A moment is something that changes because it pertains to time and is merely a smallest unit of time measure.

An year has a beginning, middle and an end.
A month…
A day…
An hour…
A minute…
A second…
A nanosecond…
A moment has a beginning, middle and an end.

If a moment didn’t have a beginning, middle and an end, then it’s beginning and end wouldn’t be discerned.

23

I don’t really understand what it is that you are talking about because of the unconventional usage of words like ‘mind’ and now ‘moment’.

The word mind is generally a mind of this or that being, the six classes of consciousness are spoken of as mind. When you speak of a mind other than this, it is extraordinary and requires much explanation.

Likewise when you speak of ‘moments’ outside of space-time. This is very much extraordinary because a moment pertains to time and we don’t usually speak of time outside time.

Anyway, i will leave it at this.

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24

Have you considered that the sense of time may be an artifact of ever changing phenomena? Just a thought. Anyway, I don’t know what to say. You post these quotes I assume to correct some misunderstanding that you feel I have - yet I keep agreeing with these posts - such as the two you give here. So I don’t really understand what you are getting at. Perhaps if you quoted something from the essay and say “This is how I understand this - Is this what you mean?” - then that would give me a better idea.

25

No, the questions that I asked will still be the same.

Let me put it in clearer words with highlight so you can see easier. Below is just directly from what you said:

From what you said, as I understand, it means:

  1. Cessation of ignorance conditions cessation of greed and hatred
  2. Cessation of greed and hatred conditions cessation of clinging consciousness

Until here, are we still on the same page?

26

I don’t understand what you mean by it being an artifact of changing phenomena but time only goes in as far as change goes in general.

We only think about time in as far as change goes.

To measure time we measure a change in something. Our smallest measure of time is derived from our ability to discern change such the frequencies of as atomic decayor whatnot by which we calibrate other means of measuring time.

A year is measured months
Months by days
Days by hours
Hours by minutes
Minutes by seconds
Seconds by miliseconds
Miliseconds by nanoseconds
Nanoseconds by measurable intervals of atomic decay or things like a particle crossing of a molecule.

But at the end of the day, to measure any interval we have to discern change, and in that a before and an after must be discerned. Therefore thinking about time is inherently tied to change.

In that sense one can say that time is an artifact of change. Maybe this is close to what you meant.

27

I was posting in trying to understand what exactly you meant and the quotes to encourage a common usage of that expression.

It is very difficult to understand what exactly people mean when talking about these things.

28

You stumble on the word ‘moment’, unfortunately.

I see that the Buddha teaches that there is not something like an established reality. The All, the world we experience via the six senses, is mind-made in the way we experience it. The hardness/softness of things, the colours, the sounds, the shapes, the smells, all the characteristics we notice, it is all just a result of how our brain , our senses, our nerves, our mind processes info. Einstein has showed this is also true for the dimensions of time and space, that is also relative and dependend on perspective.

But how we perceive things is not an established reality. This idea of an established reality is the ultimate delusion. Because then we think or believe that the way we experience things as humans is how things are. This is absurd. The top of delusion. It is really nonsense to think that a decaying body IS repulsive, for example.

Buddha could walk over water, fly, dive into the earth, and this way a great masters shows there is no established reality.

Maybe you can feel or see how the mind fills in and get some sense of the unestablised reality?

Do you really believe there is a being and that is has a mind??

And when the sutta’s talk about the purification of the mind, does that refer to the purification of the 6 sense vinnana’s?

Sutta’s talk about the mind in different ways. In general, in that aspect that can be seen arising and ceasing (vinnana’s) and in that aspect that cannot be seen arising and ceasing (emptiness).
That aspect of mind that cannot be seen arising and ceasing is impossible to manipulate. How can one manipulate emptiness?

29

I’ll answer anyway because these are good questions

In as far as communication goes i understand what is referred to as a ‘being’.

If you tell me: ‘give this package to that being’.

Because i am adequately trained in such communicaion, I would be capable of doing what it is you want me to do.

If you were to tell me: ‘this being’s mind is beset by worry’.

Likewise i would know what it is that you are communiating because i am adequately trained.

In either case, If you spoke in a foreign language, then i wouldn’t be able to respond adequately to the communicable because i am not trained in that system.

Therefore the question of whether I really believe that there are being and whether these being really have minds, is irrelevant to effective communication.

It is just communication & the communicable and i have long understood that reality is not what i name it or what think about it.

Therefore in as far as communication goes i know the words ‘beings’ and ‘minds’ but i don’t make assertions beyond the communicable use of these conventions.

Purification of mind is neither the aggregate consciousness nor apart from it. But rather this purification is discerned as the absence of greed-anger-delusion in dependence on past, present and future consciousness.

30

so, if someone is unconsciousness, mind is absent?

31

You are asking many questions and i don’t understand why. Could you tell me the purpose?

Are you cross-questioning in regards to the questions i posed to you; or are you generally curious about my understanding; or are you interrogating as to find a mistake; or are looking for a clarification of a particular point?

Either is fine with me but as much as i do appreciate a good question, i do not like derailing this thread by further discussing unconsciousness.

I pretty much signed up to this forum to discuss the D11.

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32

Thanks, this is very helpful feedback. I can see that what I wrote could be a bit confusing. Let me restate that more clearly:

The Aggregate of Consciousness (the knowing quality of the mind) under the influence of ignorance is what makes it ‘clingable’ - or in other words, now it has become the Clinging Aggregate of Consciousness. With the presence of ignorance, sankharas are also present and these further condition this Clinging Aggregate of Consciousness. With the cessation of ignorance, this Clinging Aggregate of Consciousness remains/reverts to The Aggregate of Consciousness (the knowing quality of mind) - The Clinging Aggregate is seen to have been simply an illusion or trick of the mind due to ignorance. Like the rope that appears as a snake - once it is seen to be a rope, the sense of it being a snake disappears.

I wanted to stay away from stages of awakening but I did mention greed and hatred - so I guess I can’t. I think greed and hatred fall away with the five lower fetters so these disappear when there is no longer the sense of ‘I am this/that’ and what is left is the formless identification ‘I am’ (Anagami). This seems quite clear in the Suttas.

I really appreciate your questions. It is so difficult to present this topic in a way that is clear.

Rephrasing:

  1. Greed and Hatred fall away/cease with the cessation of identification with this body as being me or mine (the stage of Anagami).
  2. Greed and Hatred further conditions/distorts our sense of self as long as these are active (see 1 above) .

I hope that is better. Thank you for your help. I think in my next version of this I will not refer to Greed and Hatred in order to avoid having to bring in stages of awakening which make this topic unnecessarily complicated. Because really all I am trying to show here is that vinanna doesn’t disappear/cease with awakening - it just stops landing on name and form.

33

Indeed, it is very difficult. I appreciate your effort. I am not very familiar with the Visudhimagga. I started with reading the suttas before encountering it and just found it confusing to me. It is much easier for me to stay within the context of the Suttas. I will take a look at your earlier posts to see if I can maybe see where we are disagreeing or misunderstanding each other.

34

I now rest in this (for a while :slight_smile:

I believe all this in DN11 says “monk seek the fruit of arahantship and do not seek arupa jhana”. Seek the fruit of a fully purified and detached mind. That is the mind which does not land anymore on what it senses because all that can cause landing (all fetters) have been destroyed. “Seek that monk”.

The cessation of vinnana mentioned does not refer to the cessation of the 6 sense vinnana’s, like it also does not in Paticca Samuppada (an arahant without avijja still senses) but vinnana in the sutta’s almost always refers to a defiled mindstate, a knowing defiled with greed, hate and delusion. A kamma vinnana. If one does not see this, all becomes a mess. There a huge difference between a mere sense vinnana and a karmically active vinnana, i.e. a vinnana with a defiled load. Vinnana is almost never a mere consciousness. A mere sensing. Only for the arahant.

The karmically loaded vinnana’s have ended for the arahant but not the six sense vinnana’s, ofcourse.
In this situation there are elements, but they find no footing because anything that can cause attachment to it, is uprooted.

I believe it cannot really be said that in arupa jhana the four great elements have no footing. Probably it can be said they have temporary ceased, surpressed. And Buddha says to the monk, " do not seek that. Do not seek those formless realms", but seek the fruit of the arahant. A situation of total detachment, where the elements find no footing. Detachment is the same as ‘things find no footing anymore’.
They do not establish. They are there but they do not become builingblocks.

Nanananda also saw this adinassana vinnana as the fully purified mind, free (DN, note 242, translation Walshe).

For me, all things fall in place this way.

35

Yes, I agree. One has to find a way of dismissing not only the sutta references I have included here but in my opinion many more. How does consciousness become freed in some suttas and yet always destroyed according to Sujato’s reasoning. The more one looks into this, the more this view falls apart. How can an Arahat still be aware of all five aggregates if the aggregate of consciousness ceases to exist?

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36

Just as info. I did not figure this out myself. These different meanings of vinnana. It was explained to me. All credits to the teacher. For me it was very helpful.

I have read that Abhidhamma treats vinnana as an endstage. An original pure citta becomes defiled in very rapid successive stages. The end stage of defilement is the vinnana-khandha.
Cetasika’s like greed, hate, jalousy etc. are incorporated very rapidly. And very rapidly there is much more going on then a mere seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, smelling, tactile feeling. Vinnana is almost always defiled, loaded, not only with dark qualities but also with bright ones. Such vinnana’s can become kamma-seeds and lead to vipaka, fruits, good and bad. But sense vinnana’s cannot. They have not karmic load.

A mere smell vinnana is very different from a smell vinnana with the karmic load of dislike. Such karmic loaded vinnana’s gradually weaken and even come to an end due to the Path, but not the sense-vinnana’s ofcourse. It is not that one becomes blind :slight_smile:

37

Because it doesn’t cease to exist while an arahant is alive.

All the khandhas are present and active while alive – what has ceased are all defilements and clinging. Greed, anger, and ignorance have ceased. Not the khandhas.
So there is peace and the knowledge that there will be no further rebirth and hence no re-arising of dukkha after the final death.

Consciousness and the other khandhas only cease with final nibbāna, when the khandhas cease without remainder at the passing away of an arahant.
Then, no consciousness or any of the other aggregates, no bhava, no dukkha.

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38

It seems to me that there are currently at least 2 scenarios:

Scenario 1:

  1. There is clinging.
  2. There is consciousness.
  3. There is also another type of consciousness which is clinging consciousness which is the result of: ignorance covering/influences consciousness in (2) above.

Now we look at the cessation in scenario 1:
a) Cessation of ignorance conditions cessation of clinging. Cessation of clinging conditions cessation of clinging consciousness.
b) Consciousness in (2) is always there, it does not change, it is not affected, it still remains while (1) and (2) are gone, it is not conditioned by the cessation procedure.

Illustration:
[Wearing color glass](Ignorance) so [a person with good eyes](Consciousness) [sees through color glass](Clinging consciousness) then [sees distorted color](Samsara).
Cessation: [Removing color glass](Cessation of ignorance) so [a person with good eyes](Consciousness) [does not see through color glass](Cessation of clinging consciousness) then [sees color as it really is](Nibbāna)

In this case: [Good eyes](Consciousness) from start to finish, remains the same, never changes.

People will call this [Good eyes](Consciousness) as pure heart, pure mind, pure consciousness, pure citta, anidassana consciousness, etc. Because it never changes, it is deathless, it is unconditioned just like Nibbāna.

Scenario 2:

  1. There is clinging.
  2. There is clinging consciousness which is the result of: ignorance
  3. Note that there is no 2 types of consciousness as in scenario 1.

Now we look at the cessation in scenario 2:
a) Cessation of ignorance conditions cessation of clinging. Cessation of clinging conditions cessation of clinging consciousness.
b) Clinging consciousness becomes consciousness.
c) Consciousness in (b) above is conditioned by the cessation procedure. Whatever the name we give to Consciousness in (b), we can call it pure heart, pure mind, pure consciousness, pure citta, anidassana consciousness, etc. it is still a conditioned dhamma. Therefore, it will also be destroyed.

Illustration:
[A sick person](Ignorance) with [sick eyes](Clinging consciousness) [sees distorted color](Samsara).
Cessation: [a healthy person](Cessation of ignorance) with [healthy eyes](Consciousness) [sees color as it really is](Nibbāna)

In this case: [healthy eyes](Consciousness) is a conditioned dhamma because it changes from sick eye into healthy eye with the cessation of sickness as condition. Although that consciousness can be used to see the unconditioned Nibbāna, that consciousness will still be destroyed.

So, I have presented here 2 scenarios. From our discussion, it seems to me, you are telling scenario 1. Meanwhile, I was trying to show you scenario 2.

Until here, are we still on the same page?

39

Yes, pretty good. But the wording of Scenario 1 isn’t quite what I am describing so if I may rephrase it:

  1. There is undefiled mind (citta)
  2. This citta has an inherent quality/attribute/characteristic of knowing.
  3. In the presence of ignorance, this knowing quality is subject to clinging.
  4. With the cessation of ignorance, clinging ceases.

Can you work with that?

40

This is the whole point of the essay. I am responding to Ven. Sujato’s view that consciousness ceases (to exist) with the cessation of dependent origination. Seems like we agree on this.

What happens at death of the physical body of an Arahat - can’t really speculate on. Are you saying here that Bhava only ceases with the death off the physical body? - Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Bhava is dependent on ignorance.