@UpasakaMalavaro Buddha is the teacher of Gods and humans, having this position how could a deva help us, is it not the correct knowledge taught by the Enlightened One that helps us to go on and improve?
The Āṭānāṭiya Protection
Mighty spirits hold a congregation, and warn the Buddha that, since not all spirits are friendly, the mendicants should learn verses of protection.
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I understand that the texts talk about Gods and Devas but not literally. If this were real then these "gods would decide about men and their actions and choices which would completely invalidate the real need for the Buddha. So I believe we need to understand clearly what this information really means in the Suttas. If we should do it worship of these deities, what did the Enlightened One come to do then? Show us how to deliver us from what, if they are the gods and deliver their worshipers?
[Buddhism is, then, within the ideologies called religion, the great survivor holding the concept of natural law. However, as with all other religions, as it (Buddhism) passed from one country to another, it became syncretized with polytheism or with local ideas. This happened in Tibet, for example, with the Bon Shamanic religion; this happened in Japanese Buddhism through the transformation of local deities into bodhisattvas who end up being respected and revered to the point that people even make requests to such deities, as in Christianity, which requests are made to saints, who are capable gods. to interfere and have inclinations.
Despite this syncretism, Buddhism is an ideology based on natural law, and the question is whether you accept this law – cause and effect, karma, the workings of karma – because there is nothing in the creation of Buddhism that endorses the gods. bodhisattvas, buddha of medicine, bodhisattva of compassion, etc.]
[Excerpt from the book Good Questions, Good Answers, by Bhante Shravasti Dhammika
Question: Do you Buddhists believe in one God?
Answer: No, we dont believe. There are several reasons for this. Like modern sociologists and psychologists, the Buddha understood that most religious ideas, and especially the idea of God, are rooted in anxiety and fear. He said:
Overcome with fear, people go to the holy mountains, to the holy groves, to the holy trees and to shrines. Dhp. 188
Primitive humans found themselves in a dangerous and hostile world. The fear of wild animals, of not being able to find food, of injury and disease, and of natural phenomena such as thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constant. Finding no security, these men created the idea of gods to give them comfort in good times, courage in times of danger, and comfort when things went wrong. Even today you can see that people usually become more religious in times of crisis, and they usually say that belief in god or gods gives them strength to deal with life. In some cases, they explain that they believe in some particular god because they prayed in a time of need and their prayer was answered. All of this seems to support the Buddha’s idea that the concept of god is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, lessen our desires, and be calm to courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear with rational understanding free from irrational beliefs.
The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that there is no clear evidence in favor of this idea. There are countless religions, all of them claiming to be the only one to have the word of god recorded in their holy books, the only one to understand the nature of god, that their gods exist and that the gods of other religions do not. Some of them claim that god is male, others that “he” is female, and still others that he is neuter. Some say that God is one, others that he is a trinity, with three natures. All of them are satisfied because “there is ample evidence” proving the existence of their god, but they despise and make fun of the evidence that other religions use to prove the existence of their gods. It is surprising that despite the fact that so many religions have tried hard over many centuries to prove the existence of a god, there is, to this day, no real, concrete, substantial and irrefutable evidence for the existence of such a being. The members of a religion cannot even agree among themselves what the god they praise looks like. Buddhists, on the other hand, fail to judge such a question until, if so, some real evidence for the existence of god emerges.
The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that he felt that such a belief is not necessary. Some people claim that belief in a god is necessary to explain the origin of the universe. But science has quite convincingly explained how the universe originated without having to use the idea of god. Some claim that the idea of god is necessary to live a happy and meaningful life. But then again, it is possible to see that things are not quite like that. There are millions of atheists and freethinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who lead useful, happy, and meaningful lives without believing in a god. Still others claim that belief in the power of god is necessary because humans, being weak, lack the strength to help and support themselves. But again, the evidence indicates the opposite. It is very common to hear about people who have overcome great deficiencies and obstacles, enormous inequalities and difficulties, through their own inner resources and efforts, without having to believe in a god. Some understand that God is needed to grant us salvation. But this argument only makes sense if you accept the theological concept of salvation, an argument that Buddhists, of course, do not.
Based on his own experience, the Buddha realized that every human being has the ability to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion, and attain perfect understanding. He shifted Heaven’s attention to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.]
"‘I, too, know that, brahma. If I relish earth, I will lie close to you, lie within your domain, for you to banish and to do with as you like. If I relish liquid … fire … wind … beings … devas … Pajapati … brahma, I will lie close to you, lie within your domain, for you to banish and to do with as you like. Moreover, I discern your sphere, I discern your splendor: “Baka Brahma has this much great power. Baka Brahma has this much great might. Baka Brahma has this much great influence.”’
"‘Well, monk, how do you discern my sphere, how do you discern my splendor: “Baka Brahma has this much great power. Baka Brahma has this much great might. Baka Brahma has this much great influence”?’
"'As far as suns & moons revolve,
shining, illuminating the directions,
over a thousand-fold world
your control holds sway.
There you know those above & below,
those with lust & those without,
the state of what is as it is,
the state of what becomes otherwise,
the coming & going of beings.
"'That, brahma, is how I discern your sphere, that is how I discern your splendor: “Baka Brahma has this much great power. Baka Brahma has this much great might. Baka Brahma has this much great influence.” There are, brahma, bodies other than yours that you don’t know, don’t see, but that I know, I see. There is, brahma, the body named Abhassara (Radiant/Luminous) from which you fell away & reappeared here.[4] From your having lived here so long, your memory of that has become muddled. That is why you don’t know it, don’t see it, but I know it, I see it. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you."'There is, brahma, the body named Subhakinha (Beautiful Black/Refulgent Glory) … the body named Vehapphala (Sky-fruit/Great Fruit), {the body named Abhibhu (Conqueror)}[5] which you don’t know, don’t see, but that I know, I see. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be your inferior? I am actually superior to you.
Do you want more Gods and Devas?
Ps: I’m also Brazilian, I think we participate in the same social network as the Suddhavari monastery. great to meet another brazilian around here.
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- Linked Discourses 6
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- The Appeal
1. The Appeal of Brahmā
So I have heard. At one time, when he was first awakened, the Buddha was staying near Uruvelā at the root of the goatherd’s banyan tree on the bank of the Nerañjarā River.
Then as he was in private retreat this thought came to his mind, “This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute. But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it. It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination. It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment. And if I were to teach this principle, others might not understand me, which would be wearying and troublesome for me.”
And then these verses, which were neither supernaturally inspired, nor learned before in the past, occurred to the Buddha:
“I’ve struggled hard to realize this,enough with trying to explain it!This principle is not easily understoodby those mired in greed and hate.
Those besotted by greed can’t seewhat’s subtle, going against the stream,deep, hard to see, and very fine,for they’re shrouded in a mass of darkness.”
And as the Buddha reflected like this, his mind inclined to remaining passive, not to teaching the Dhamma.
Then Brahmā Sahampati, knowing what the Buddha was thinking, thought, “Oh my goodness! The world will be lost, the world will perish! For the mind of the Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, inclines to remaining passive, not to teaching the Dhamma.”
Then, as easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, he vanished from the Brahmā realm and reappeared in front of the Buddha. He arranged his robe over one shoulder, knelt with his right knee on the ground, raised his joined palms toward the Buddha, and said:
“Sir, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the Holy One teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes. They’re in decline because they haven’t heard the teaching. There will be those who understand the teaching!”
This is what Brahmā Sahampati said. Then he went on to say:
“Among the Magadhans there appeared in the pastan impure teaching thought up by those still stained.Fling open the door to the deathless!Let them hear the teaching the immaculate one discovered.
Standing high on a rocky mountain,you can see the people all around.In just the same way, all-seer, wise one,having ascended the Temple of Truth,rid of sorrow, look upon the peopleswamped with sorrow, oppressed by rebirth and old age.
Rise, hero! Victor in battle, leader of the caravan,wander the world without obligation.Let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma!There will be those who understand!”
Then the Buddha, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, because of his compassion for sentient beings. And the Buddha saw sentient beings with little dust in their eyes, and some with much dust in their eyes; with keen faculties and with weak faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach. And some of them lived seeing the danger in the fault to do with the next world, while others did not.
It’s like a pool with blue water lilies, or pink or white lotuses. Some of them sprout and grow in the water without rising above it, thriving underwater. Some of them sprout and grow in the water reaching the water’s surface. And some of them sprout and grow in the water but rise up above the water and stand with no water clinging to them.
In the same way, the Buddha saw sentient beings with little dust in their eyes, and some with much dust in their eyes; with keen faculties and with weak faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach. And some of them lived seeing the danger in the fault to do with the next world, while others did not.
When he had seen this he replied in verse to Brahmā Sahampati:
“Flung open are the doors to the deathless!Let those with ears to hear commit to faith.Thinking it would be troublesome, Brahmā, I did not teachthe sophisticated, sublime Dhamma among humans.”
Then Brahmā Sahampati, knowing that his request for the Buddha to teach the Dhamma had been granted, bowed and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on his right, before vanishing right there.
I think we are talking about 2 things…
the path to enlightenment - which only depends on our effort
and the help we received along that path.
the same way we relate to people, our friends. we also relate to beings from other planes of existence.
just as the help of a friend can be important, but it does not replace our efforts to reach enlightenment.
we can also ask for the help of Devas, but that will not replace our efforts for enlightenment.
Buddhist cosmology
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
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So this is not based on the suttas, but rather on the ideas of modernists who are themselves syncretizing with modern ideas. The teachings of the Buddha are filled with information about gods. It’s not something that comes from syncretization. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
The long quotation from Ven. Dhammika is very misleading. The question he is trying to answer is “Do you Buddhists believe in one God?” i.e. a creator god in charge of our salvation. But it is so poorly written that one could think that the Buddha didn’t believe in any type of god at all, which, if you follow the scriptures of any of the schools (not just Pali) is patently untrue.
Also, a friendly reminder to you and @LucasOliveira, it’s helpful if you completely enclose quotations within [quote] [\quote] tags so it is clear that it is not you posting.
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@Snowbird Good morning, the question here is not whether they are cited, but whether they help when we ask. Asking the gods for things and the 4 noble truths is something incompatible, I make a mistake and make offers and prayers to the gods and the consequences of my evil deeds disappear. It makes no sense. In this way, I understand that this must have another meaning, which the little ones of my knowledge still do not understand. Someone in my family died, I ask the gods to console me then I get better. I use drugs, I’m suffering so much so, instead of identifying the suffering, stopping doing what creates the suffering and practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, I ask the gods and they make my desire to use drugs disappear. I don’t understand this as Buddhism, but I’m grateful if there’s another way of thinking and for sure here I’ll learn. I am not versed in the Suttas so I am grateful if my thinking is corrected.
Thank you for your guidance regarding citations.
How important is honesty?
I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that any gods have power to remove the results of karma or to change our mental states. But that is an entirely separate issue from whether or not gods can help with material things.
That’s why the whole quote from Ven. Dhammika is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
No, you are imposing the Abrahamic concept of “God” onto what the Buddha taught. As long as you are doing that, you won’t understand the suttas (sorry if that comes off as strong). The heavenly beings that the Buddha taught about do not “decide about men and their actions and choices”. That is your incorrect conclusion based on your view of God in the Abrahamic religions. The Buddha taught that gods do not have this power. But that doesn’t make them any less real. And it doesn’t make their actual powers any less real.
There is no doubt at all that in the texts the gods are literal beings. How could you be reborn as a god if they were not literal beings?
It’s fine if people want to pick and choose what they believe from the texts, but it’s not ok to deny what they say.
[Also, you know that you can go back and edit your post to put his quote in the tags I mentioned? It will make it easier for people to read the thread.]
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It could be a metaphor
@luis_ruitoku Yes, I see now. In the suttas there are many instances of gods coming to humans to share the Buddha’s teaching with them. That is the root of the question from the OP. Not that the gods can come to us to fix the problem through their powers.
When we look at the lifespan of gods, even in the lower realms, there can be no doubt that the heavenly realms are filled with gods who were alive at the time of the Buddha and learned his teachings.
Now, as others have said, there is no guarantee that gods will come to help us either with spiritual teachings, or with material things.
No. When you look at the definition of death throughout the suttas, it is always saying “with the breakup of the body, after death.” It’s not a metaphor.
In any case, that is a discussion for another thread, as one of the moderators mentioned above.
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I find it odd that people are allowed to disagree with each other about nearly anything… unless I ask for evidence… then it’s suddenly not allowed.
Why is it not allowed to question whether supernatural claims are legitimate or a metaphor or a delusion?
Isn’t ridding one’s self of delusion a high priority for Buddhists?
1 - on the issue of this topic, I think the Devas can help us, when we are going through some difficulty…
2 - I recognize that one of the most striking characteristics of Buddhism is that for our salvation, liberation, enlightenment, it only depends on our effort.
Enlightenment does not depend on a deity, gods or devas.
I think a lot of people choose Buddhism because of that reason.
One of the reasons I like Buddhism the most is because of that, our liberation does not depend on gods or devas.
3 - about the gods and devas in the suttas, of course they are real
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There are many scientific works proving the benefits of prayer.
not counting the thousands of cases of cures that medicine cannot explain…
just search the internet.
Thank you for sharing this Sutta AN 3.40
I didn’t know this sutta
not yet translated to portuguese
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First the beginning practitioner is governed by self, then in the intermediate stage they are guided by devas. When samadhi is developed some degree of higher powers are inevitable including the penetration of minds.
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