'Do nothing' meditation and EBT

Not to to put a dampner on your enthusiasm (!), but not doing could also a be a manifestation of laziness/tiredness (thina midda), one of the five hindrances. There is a commentarial idea that I found quite helpful in my practice (which I first read in a book by Ven Rerukanne Chandrawimala, a renown Sri Lankan monk) of deceptive dhammas (vanchanika dhamma) - that is, unwholesome dhammas ‘pretending’ to be wholesome ones. For example our conceit might be underlying our motivation to help others, and so on (not saying the given example above, is an example of this…)

with metta

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By do nothing; it means not getting involved with sights, smells etc.
don’t engage with them.

There are people who will argue sense restraint isn’t necessary if overt desire isn’t present, but I just don’t agree. I know that if I walk down a city street with my eyes down I will arrive more peaceful than if I’m walking along looking around. Even if there are no sights that particularly take my fancy. By practicing this kind of restraint this is non-looking/non-doing.

At one of Ajahn Brahm’s retreats I attended he pointed out that every thought we have is just an echo of the other 5 senses.

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I see what you’re saying but it’s not really the point of ‘non-doing’ to focus on what the hindrances are doing or not doing. Rather the focus (‘wise attention’ - as it says in some EBTs) is on wholesome qualities which have (as @Pasanna has pointed out) their basis in the aspects of Right Intention/Motivation. What we focus on grows. The hindrances are let go (it’s a gradual training in letting go) without our even really realising this.

Sloth and torpor are present sometimes but personally, I find it takes a bit of courage, to use this strategy when one has sloth and torpor. I’ve heard Ajahn Brahm suggest that a mind that’s tired is usually tired as a result of too much “doing”…ie. restlessness…and that the mind swings back and forth between restless and slothfulness. His suggestion to deal with both is to cultivate contentment (do nothing) with however your mind is. Thus one takes the energy/focus away from all the movement, rushing, thinking, pulling and pushing and whatever else is there…instead the energy goes on contentment, letting go, stepping back, renunciation. Stillness - Ajahn Brahm’s preferred translation for Samadhi - grows…effortlessly.

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:smile:
Thank you Mat for reminding that our job is not done yet:slightly_smiling_face:
I perfectly understand your objection and this is why I am looking for justification in EBT. Justification for feeling glad by doing nothing, it is so against my work ethos, against achieving, against hard striving.
No pain, no gain
but

It feels good. I feels right. It feels self-accepting. It brings happiness. When I am happy it is so easy to be kind to others, to be compassionate, energized. How easy metta practice is now, just natural:slight_smile:
It feels like I am enough for the first time, like I let go at last.
Now I wonder how I could listen so many times to Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Brahm talking about it and still don’t get it:slight_smile:

@anon29387788@Pasanna
thank you for your words and wonderful references

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I’m so pleased you’re finding happiness in meditation Jarek!! I say keep doing what works for you. :slight_smile:

Much Mudita :smiley:

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Doing nothing gross to the most subtle:

  1. not doing unwholesome things (akusala kamma) - actions and speech
  2. sense restraint
  3. restraint from unwholesome thought and five hindrances
  4. restraint from unwholesome attitudes
  5. restraint from unwholesome views
  6. restraint from diffused states of mind and lack of mindfulness
  7. restraint from attraction to bliss, lights and concentration
  8. restraint from being attracted to jhana
  9. restraint from attachment to all conditioned phenomena.

What do you think?

With metta

For me not doing is observing five, eight and ten precepts.
However, I have to practice the opposite.
ie: Do not kill but practice loving kindness etc.

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With the greatest respect to you Mat, I disagree with the order and certainly with some of the phrasing. And there are countless EBT references to back that up. But I would have to sit here for far too long to go into it and I’ve got to start dinner soon!

But…very quickly…

I prefer the sequences provided by the Buddha to the one you’ve presented here. Such as:

  1. The 8 Fold Path

  2. AN 11.1

  3. AN 10.2 …I particularly would draw your attention to the phrase “no volition” here…

I would also like to add, that the Dhamma as I understand it, does not require us to go from puttujana to arahant immediately. It’s gradual and slow. The arahant is truly unattached to pleasures of jhanas etc. but they still get them easily as a natural consequence of how their mind is. This is, as I’ve heard it, because they’ve let go of more fetters.

As I’ve heard Ajahn Brahm state again and again, and it makes so much sense to me, you cannot get attached to jhanas because they are states of letting go. Letting go is the very opposite of attachment. But the arahant must let go so much more.

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Oh, I wasn’t objecting at all, I totally agreed with what @Pasanna and @anon29387788 were saying. I was adding something to what was being said but didn’t want it coming across the incorrect way - communication on the internet and all that.

Workaholics (like me) need to chill out and vice versa I think. There is a Ven. Sona who tried too hard - AN6.55. and the Buddha asked him to relax (but not go in the opposite direction).

I have tried zen meditation but found I needed an object of meditation like the breath, to strike the right tension.

With metta

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My apologies…I’m editing my last post…I’m changing “anagami” to “arahant” :slight_smile:

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We are so subtly addicted to doing! Even on 3 month retreat time I found myself wanting to do. It seems to me so intrinsically linked to bhava. If I do I become, if I don’t do I disappear.

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Speaking from experience, it’s so much harder when life is busy and full. From what I can work out from your presence here, you’re doing very well. :slight_smile:

Oh lol…really do have to go now. Bye everyone…for now :wink:

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No.
Actions of Arahants is called Kiriya Citta. No kammic effect.
Buddha worked tirelessly day and night.

The arahants work out of compassion, the rest of us still have a variable level of self view. The attachment to our existence is an enormous fuel for doing. It’s right there in DO.

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Then how do you practice Noble Eightfold Path?

Yes, its like moving forward with the brakes on!

with metta

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OK, talk to you later!

That’s ok!

As we know the Buddha presented many sequences like this. I was merely trying my hand at basing one getting rid of the gross phenomena and moving towards ever more subtle phenomena, in the sequence.

The Noble eightfold path seems to me based on what must come first ie it a causative sequence, just as AN11.1 is. AN11.1 is an expanded version of the three trainings (of morality, unification and insight, sila, samadhi and panna), but leaves out right view, doesn’t mentioning mindfulness and effort, compared to the N8FP. This is not to say that those are not necessary, but just that they are not included in this particular formulation. Wholesome desire for the path (Canda) or faith, for example aren’t mentioned frequently but is essential.

with metta

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Until we are sotapana and have seen through bhava tanha and vibhava tanha we will still be doing for the sake of becoming. We don’t understand the first noble truth. We don’t understand the cause of suffering so we don’t abandon it (2NT).

The 8fp is based on the above. Right view.
Then we have right motivation:
Letting go, non-ill will, non-harming
3 kinds of not doing.
Right speech: 4 kinds of abstaining based on the above motivation:
Abstain From lying, from gossip, from harsh speech, from chatter
Right action: not harming, not taking, not engaging in sexual misconduct
Right endeavour: the first two parts are not doing/abandoning. Then we can look at AN10.2 to see how all this abandoning leads to development.

Sure this is a bit reductionist but you asked!

My point was from sn12.1
With delusion as a cause, volition (will) comes to be…wanting…fuel…exhistance…rebirth…dukkha

The arahants don’t have delusion. The rest of use have it as our base for doing.

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This is quite acceptable in Buddhist teaching.
It is called Lokiya Sammadithi.

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I have approximately 33 seconds to breath, everyday!

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