This question came to my mind after watching the video presentation by @ Bhante Sujato on Buddhist Mythology Course.
Sutta contains a lot of miracles performed by Buddha and Arahants such as walking on water and flying cross leg in the air. It also contains an account of Naga, fairies, etc.
Are all these Buddhist mythologies?
If not what is the basis to believe on them?
These four saášyuttas can be discussed together, as they all deal with certain classes of sentient beings that, from a modern perspective, would be considered mythological. In each the Buddha enumerates the different species into which the class can be divided and the courses of kamma that lead to rebirth into that particular mode of existence. By counting separately each type of gift given by the aspirant for rebirth into those destinies, and connecting them with the subdivisions among the beings, a large number of very short suttas are generated https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=519343#p519343
This is the colloquial sense of âmythologicalâ, i.e. âsomething that isnât realâ. This has nothing to do with the study of mythology proper, which the study of sacred stories and their meanings to peoples. Itâs really hard to talk about a topic when you canât even get across what the words mean!
These are interesting collections about early Buddhist adaptation of Vedic mythical beliefs on dragon/snake ânagaâ, bird âsupannaâ, plant deva âgandhabbaâ, and cloud deva âvalahakaâ.
They seem having close connection with monks living in the forest environment. It will be good to see a comparative study of the Pali and Chinese versions of the mythical beliefs.
Just offering my perspective on this interesting discussion and bearing in mind that Iâm a beginner Buddhist having only been introduced to the jatakas at @sujato 's recent course.
To me, âbeliefâ and âtruthâ can be really complex.
Iâm an ex-Catholic so Iâve had years of being told what to and how to believe. Christianity has incredible incidents in its stories too (and Iâm totally not knocking that; I still have a lot of respect for Christianity).
Personally, Iâm not looking for something to believe in. I think I just want to be a happier more useful person and I find that Buddhist practice really helps me. And I totally enjoy the literary devices in the suttas - the fairies and the mythical animals (I love a good naga story). I see them as story telling devices and I admire the authors. I just enjoy them. They make me keener to read the suttas.
The central wisdom / teachings appear and re-appear in the suttas; sometimes with fantastical events/ creatures and sometimes without. So far, Iâm finding those teachings to be âtruthâ only after I test them through experience - trying them out and seeing if they work.
Interesting question. Thereâs quite a number of parables and stories in the suttas that come across as humorous, i doubt if they were meant to be taken literally. But remember lacking sciences of archeology and so on, there is no way of testing whether something actually happened in the past, so the distinction between history and mythology was not as clear as it is for us.
If thereâs no way to tell truth from false, and the Buddha nevertheless said about devas, past lives etc and even myths, assuming that he was known to be incapable of outright lying, he might have expected the myths to be believed as if they were true. Otherwise they wonât have the level of impact they were to have. Itâs the function of a myth which seems valuable. How would âsacredâ be defined, and how relevant is it to a religion without divinity?!
I am personally not a believer in the authenticity of âmythologyâ in the suttas. Meaning, I believe it was added later. I also think we get into all sorts of ethical problems when we start to legitimize untruthful stories in the suttas - what then is the difference in ethics compared to normal life?
If we say âlying is bad, unless itâs meant to be funnyâ or âlying is bad, unless it has a good functionâ, or âlying is bad, unless you mean wellâ - then we have no ethics at all because I can always twist it into one of these alternatives.
âWhat I said yesterday, that youâre all going to hell (Mara is going to get youâŚ) if you donâtâŚ, that was just a joke⌠it was just to motivate youâ - what kind of Buddha would that be?
I think youâre missing the point that people thought very differently about things back then. In order to fully understand ancient texts, you need to consider the historical and cultural context. If you only view these texts through a modern lens you will miss the point.
As a trivial comparison, compare the attitudes to cigarette-smoking now with 50 years ago.
Sometimes I wonder whether there is some truth in those stories.
For instance, if we tell someone that Diansores were roaming on earth a few thousands of years ago without the evidence of the skeletons, no one would believe it.
Is it possible these are originated from Diansore fork tales?
If I recall correctly, youâve commented elsewhere that you believe the Buddha taught about rebirth and samsara and that the dhamma requires some form of rebirth. Where do you draw the line between authentic texts discussing rebirth/samsara and mythological texts?
I agree that in detail the differences are very subtle, but on a simple level mythology is for me stories in which supernatural beings appear as characters in a narrative framework, see e.g. SN 11.1:
âBhikkhus, once in the past the asuras marched against the devas. Then Sakka, lord of the devas, addressed SuvÄąra, a young deva, thusâŚâ
This for me is implausible and I canât believe that a teacher who otherwise insists on strict truth would just casually tell a mythological story as truth without framing it as⌠just a story. The âstrict Buddhaâ appears for example in MN 61: âRahula, you should train thus: âI will not utter a falsehood even
as a jokeââ
So how do you imagine this in practice? A monastic says
âI was fighting with Mara for hours yesterdayâ
âReally? What did Mara do?â
âOh, I wasnât really fighting with Mara. You know, I just meant it metaphorically.â
âSo, who were you fighting with yesterday?â
âActually only with my mental tendenciesâ
âWhy didnât you say so? For a moment I believed you suggested to have supernatural abilitiesâ
âFriend, you seem to come from far away. Here, when we say âfighting with Maraâ we sometimes mean it literally, sometimes metaphorically. The Buddha was really fighting with Mara. Most other monastics fight metaphorically. By time it will be clear to you what is meantâ
âSo to say âfighting Maraâ when itâs not factually him is not lying to you?â
âNo, itâs custom. When people know what you mean you donât have to be truthful to the wordâ
âWhat about the Vinaya rule that says 'Telling a conscious lie means: the words, the utterance, the
speech, the talk, the language, the intimation, the un-ariyan statements of one intent upon deceiving with words, saying: âI have seen what I have not seenâ'"?
âYes, this rule exists, but we apply it mostly to harmful lies and spiritual attainments. We donât apply it to cases where everyone knows that itâs meant metaphoricallyâ
âBut how do you know how everyone understands it if you canât read their minds?â
âŚ
Itâs like people saying âthank Godâ, when something works out. Itâs culture.
Lies are with an intention of harm to others but recounting a (religious) myth is for the immediate benefit. From the point of aggregates and sense doors, everything is a lie, yet we donât say donât talk conventionally.
If you go back just a few hundred years in Europe it was commonly believed that witches could make people and animals sick by casting spells. Seen through a modern lens this would be regarded as âsuperstitionâ, but it was very real to people at the time.
So if you were reading (say) a contemporary account of a 17th century witch trial, and wanted to properly understand it in historical context, you would need to make a conscious effort to suspend scepticism, and attempt to enter the mindset of the people living back then.
Iâd suggest that a similar effort is required when translating or reading the suttas, or indeed any ancient text.
The example of Mara is an interesting one. When reading the suttas, Iâve noticed that Mara is often portrayed as a real being, and there is some ambiguity here. So we have the ideas of Mara as a real being, and Mara as a metaphor, or of Mara âout thereâ and Mara âin hereâ. But I donât think these two ideas would have been seen as mutually exclusive back then, more like different ways of thinking about the same thing.
I also suspect that with a modern western mindset weâre less likely to countenance the idea of Mara as a real entity, partly because Mara, âthe evil oneâ, sounds rather too similar to the monotheistic Devil that many of us were told about growing up.
Again, the challenge is trying to understand the mindset of the people at the time, rather than imposing modern cultural assumptions.