Does God(s) Exist and Does it Matter?

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

And this page I found interesting. It seems lost teaching. Become like a god. Meaning godlike. So maybe as Buddha used every Brahmin word in the highest meaning. He calls the Arahants the real Brahmana. So for the people to understand him, he had to use common language.

Very interesting. Maybe we had that teaching. Or Buddha had so much teaching. That not all got transmitted at Sri Lanka.

But this is how I see Buddha preaching. Language had to be used to explain his teaching. And it probably was not easy at the time he was born.

Just imagine , do you think humans always had this sort of cosmology? Did the Ancient Buddhas leave it behind? So why Vedas don’t say same Buddha teachings. How far back India had this cosmology system? What is important for past Buddhas if they didn’t need to preach the same way? Let’s say strategy.

And the following is important also. Which we always forget. That’s it was actually about right view that there is future life in the other world. (Could be any kind)

The views seen good is for brahmins and sramanas. Meaning there is a bit of every tradition. (so he mentions all, because he respects all tradition, but teach right view).

I read some places of this Sutra-composer. And I don’t like it. Here at the end it’s mentioned. I once read a vinaya study and the author says that there seemed to have been a Vinaya-composer master. Like he adds story to bring meaning to a vinaya. Maybe sutras and vinaya was partly made like that.

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

I know its out of topic a bit.

But this I found also. If we think we have wrong understanding and in India they had similar tradition than we have to be careful. Point of the next. That two person discussion of the doctrine and it’s found also alot in the schools Vasubandu discuss with also. Too much not to be Buddha teaching

One thing we have to becareful also is about the later interpretations of Theravada. For example only he believed in sudden liberations and one more from the 18 schools. But this non-self teaching most schools agree. It just the way it’s explained is different.

[brooks]

@Modernupasaka

But there has to be some faith in the existence of Nibbana so that we can put in the efforts to attain it, faith in the possibility of such a state devoid of passion, aversion and delusion, and faith in kamma, that our actions can lead to such a state.

Well said. It also seems that wholesome intentions to cultivate the conditions that lead to Nibbana is important. Cultivating qualities like ethics, generosity, and wisdom, mindfulness, etc., coupled with the faith you mentioned seems like a good way to practice.

[brooks]

@Modernupasaka

This seems to mean all gods are spontaneously reborn.

Interesting. Thank you.

@Modernupasaka

Yes, the EBTs mention one Mara and one Brahma for each World System. And there are thousands of such World systems

That makes sense and resolves any apparent contradiction that I noticed in the suttas re “Mara” and “Maras”.

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

@Modernupasaka

This seems to mean all gods are spontaneously reborn.

How can gods be spontaneously reborn. Aren’t gods the beings that lived on earth? It’s rebirth because their merit. Their virtues. Their practices. Their level of right views. There is possibility the meaning of words in modern translations are not good.

@Modernupasaka

But there has to be some faith in the existence of Nibbana so that we can put in the efforts to attain it, faith in the possibility of such a state devoid of passion, aversion and delusion, and faith in kamma, that our actions can lead to such a state.

Here you are mentioning what is first extreme, that of existence. Nirvana is taught by Buddha as a experience. The dhamma as the path of letting go. I don’t need to have faith that New York exist. I just trust the persons that lives there. Explaination that it exists. After all these years I never went there. But if I start seeing books with detailed explanation, pics of NY. I might want to go there. Because I am convinced it exists. So is Nibbana. As long there is no conviction there is no real striving on the Path. Before the mind probably wants to be Nibbana. That’s why Buddha say to someone that believes immediately. To investigate.

I heard many stories from people to change in so many believes in their spiritual journey. If that happens. Then there was no real faith. That’s why conviction in seeing a glimpse of Nibbana helps to keep the faith strong.

[Modernupasaka]

Friend Ruben @Upasaka_Dhammasara I truly appreciate and respect your thorough study and knowledge of Buddhist scriptures ! Although, I am afraid I don’t have the same level of expertise and experience with regards to the EBTs to give a meaningful and thorough response!
I am only familiar with EBTs from the Pali canon, and at my current level of exposure to the texts, not quite learned in the historical evolution of Buddhist texts and theories. Perhaps I could further understand and appreciate your points as I progress ahead in my understanding of the EBTs.

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

Did the Ancient Buddhas leave it behind? So why Vedas don’t say same Buddha teachings. How far back India had this cosmology system?

I am not sure what you are trying to say here? Are you hinting at the supposition that the Vedas are a degenerate version of teachings of earlier Buddhas?

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

And the following is important also. Which we always forget. That’s it was actually about right view that there is future life in the other world. (Could be any kind)

I guess you are saying that in the beginning phase of Buddhism, only belief in afterlife was promoted, as opposed to belief in gods and heavens. However, the image of text you shared to support this view itself mentions perverted view as - no apparitional beings which is another translation of ‘spontaneously reborn beings’ .

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

How can gods be spontaneously reborn. Aren’t gods the beings that lived on earth? It’s rebirth because their merit. Their virtues. Their practices. Their level of right views. There is possibility the meaning of words in modern translations are not good.

Maybe you’re right about the translation part, that meanings of some words may not get properly conveyed, however the EBTs repeatedly mention non-human beings (call them devas, or deities or whatever ) as being a natural part of samsara. The Buddhist cosmology, I have read, is fairly consistent among all the various schools. This is to say that

The synthesis of these data into a single comprehensive system must have taken place early in the history of Buddhism, as the system described in the Pāli Vibhajyavāda tradition (represented by today’s Theravādins) agrees, despite some minor inconsistencies of nomenclature, with the Sarvāstivāda tradition which is preserved by Mahāyāna Buddhists.

• Buddhist cosmology - Wikipedia

So the systematic compilation of these things must have occurred long before the various schools developed their own distinctive theories and ideals. Sure , the devas could be metaphors for the good qualities and such. But we cannot ignore the fact that belief in their existence is a fundamental part of Right View, or for that matter, Mundane Right View, which is the precursor of the other factors of N8P!
One could argue that the belief in devas was influenced by Vedic culture, however the Vedic devas include only those that are found in the realm of Heaven of Thirty-Three, along with Brahma . Then why would the EBTs mention so many numerous other realms (31 in all) who have no counterparts in the Vedic religion?

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

Here you are mentioning what is first extreme, that of existence. Nirvana is taught by Buddha as a experience.

If you have the Kaccānagotta Sutta in mind, then there, the Buddha explains Existence as an extreme view with respect to the World, not Nibbana. I think Nibbana does exist, that’s why we can experience it ! It’s the highest truth -

“His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Unbinding — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Unbinding, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.”

• Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Properties

Actually, we need to have belief that New York exists for us to find it worth our efforts to reach there, don’t we ? Only then would we trust a person to lead us there ! So,chronologically speaking, we need to have faith/belief/ conviction that a state devoid of suffering can exist, and then only we can trust the Buddha to lead us there.
However, this discussion is getting farther from the OP so I will not go further into the subject of Faith.
Metta

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

Thanks for your interesting reply. Your actually really educated. Don’t underestimate yourself. I’m learning alot.

I didn’t mean what you said. I meant that the Ancient Buddhas teachings is not available in Vedas. But like you said let’s stay in topic.

And there is a development in Buddhist cosmology. See in Agamas. Less Brahmas. But not arguing. Let’s learn bring our mind to think futher. that’s why I ask questions.

@Modernupasaka

apparitional

But the other translation word meaning if searched means ghost or ghostlike in iPhone. Which I believe was the proper focus of EBT.

Let’s stay in topic then.

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

So in suttanipata we get Buddha saying this,

PUṆṆAKA’S QUESTION [1043-48]

All these human sages, warriors and brāhmaṇas
who make sacrifices to the gods in manyfold ways here in the world, it was in hope of [getting] such a state [again]
and because of approaching old age that they made sacrifices.

For me personally it send me message we should not hope of getting such a state again as Buddha disciples. So for me leaving the possibility open is like letting down Buddha. That’s my opinion.

But then we have suttas in nikayas talking of wrong view of not believing in results of Vedic sacrifice. Because Buddha talk of the sacrifices done next to the ganges river. Which means it’s vedic sacrifice, and most was done as devayana.

So that’s what I meant earlier of suttanipata vs nikayas. @brooks

[brooks]

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

For me personally it send me message we should not hope of getting such a state again as Buddha disciples. So for me leaving the possibility open is like letting down Buddha. That’s my opinion.

Yes, it does seem like a personal issue. I get the impression from the suttas that attaining Nibbana is not possible as a lay person (although I think there may be one sutta that possibly contradicts this conclusion); so rebirth seems unavoidable. I also get the impression that non-returners and once returners are reborn from here into heavenly realms, and I don’t think those attainments would let the Buddha down. Stream entry is also a noble state, which could include rebirths in heavenly realms.

That said, I respect your position that being reborn as a deity is certainly not the final goal. For me, the most important goal at this time in my practice is stream entry, even if that would mean not being reborn in a heavenly realm.

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

But then we have suttas in nikayas talking of wrong view of not believing in results of Vedic sacrifice.

Would you mind providing a reference or link so I can investigate?

@Upasaka_Dhammasara

So that’s what I meant earlier of suttanipata vs nikayas.

Isn’t the Sutta Nipata part of the Nikayas, the Khuddaka Nikaya?

[brooks]

Thanks. It sounds like your main point, or at least one of your main points, is that being reborn in heaven is not the primary goal of the Buddha’s teachings, which I agree with. As you know, the main problem with being reborn in a heavenly realm is not permanent and thus still subject to suffering. That said, it seems like some or most of the stages of enlightenment, except for Nibbana, likely involve being reborn in a heavenly realm at some point.

And perhaps most importantly, as it relates to this thread, it seems like deities are helpful to us practicing on the path. This is one of the reasons I think the Buddha taught us to reflect on them and their good qualities. Also, there are numerous instances in the suttas where deities helped the Buddha and other individuals in the EBTs.

But again, I think we’re in agreement that being reborn in heaven is not the final goal:-)

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

@brooks

I get the impression from the suttas that attaining Nibbana is not possible as a lay person (although I think there may be one sutta that possibly contradicts this conclusion); so rebirth seems unavoidable. I also get the impression that non-returners and once returners are reborn from here into heavenly realms, and I don’t think those attainments would let the Buddha down. Stream entry is also a noble state, which could include rebirths in heavenly realms.

Your right there is contradiction. It’s seems for householders Nirvana is not possible on earth. It’s true there the final rebirth. But brooks have to remember again that heaven is a heaven beyond that was possible to reach only by those gone beyond views.

Like stream-enterer is actually going to the natural rebirths but he is aiming by force of being a stream-enterer to Nibbana.

So actually by your early question of the post. It’s doesn’t matter anymore when you entered the paths. But! Our faith needs to be in the highest heavens. I think it’s only two of them. Tusita heaven and where Arahants dwell in the highest heaven. But then again we know they was beings like us. So it’s not so important. It’s actually like clouds passing by.

I can’t find sutta in Nikayas now.

About suttanipata it’s just it’s considered pre-nikayas. It’s added in the last nikaya. Weird.

I didn’t finish searching for you. I remember it in Agamas about the sacrifice and in Samyutta nikaya.

But I’m finally coming to a clear understanding. Thank you for your reply.

But there is interesting suttas of the heaven choices before dying of some high attained Householders. They acctitude does show they aimed in higher heavens. I will go eat now. Chat later.

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

Brooks your right. Thank you for making me realize that. The beings in heaven could have been on the path already. Your totally right. No one brought this out but you.

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

One of few text to show a real Buddha disciple attitude

Then Mara the Evil One approached the bhikkhuni Upacala and said to her: “Where do you wish to be reborn, bhikkhuni?”

“I do not wish to be reborn anywhere, friend.”

“There are Tavatiṃsa and Yama devas,
And devatās of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating,
And devas who exercise control.
Direct your mind there to those realms
And you’ll experience delight.”

The bhikkhuni Upacala:

“There are Tavatiṃsa and Yama devas,
And devatās of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating,
And devas who exercise control.
They are still bound by sensual bondage,
They come again under Mara’s control.

“All the world is on fire,
All the world is burning,
All the world is ablaze,
All the world is quaking.

“That which does not quake or blaze,
That to which worldlings do not resort,
Where there is no place for Mara:
That is where my mind delights.”

Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, “The bhikkhuni Upacala knows me, sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.

https://suttacentral.net/sn5.7/en/bodhi

But I like say still say from the first path attainable until the last the aim is nibbana. So I will specifically search even tomorrow for instance of real Buddhist attitudes.

But stream-enter is bound to Nibbana.
It’s you can choose it seem where your born. Those I search tomorrow also.

[brooks]

“Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: ‘There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings…the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that—when falling away from this life—they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that—when falling away from this life—they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well…"
AN 11.12

Yes, it seems like in the above and other EBTs, the Buddha is saying that beings are reborn in heavenly realms precisely because they are practicing Dhamma (at least partial Dhamma) with virtue, generosity, discernment, etc:-)

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

Yeah it makes sense now.

The thing about vedic sacrifice I share with you Agama.

Going along the southern [bank] of the Ganges river killing and harming, or coming along the northern [bank] of the Ganges river performing a great sacrifice, because of that there is no merit or evil and there is no incurring of merit or evil. Making offerings, disciplining oneself, protecting [others], acting for the benefit [of others] or for mutual benefit, with these actions one does not create merit?'”

That’s taking about wrong view first

So there is two reasons actually Buddha said about right view needs to be in sacrifices. The first is the Vedic one does have bad result. And offering to monks do have their good result.

In the Kalama sutta of Agamas. Is said more simple to householders.

there are wholesome and unwholesome deeds, there are results of wholesome or unwholesome deeds; there is this world and the other world

So actually that’s what we need to really focus on. That’s why the recollection on deities. Because it’s grows the right view of the good results of merit.

Still need to search those pre-death householders heaven choosing. Later. Going to study that.

[Charlotteannun]

I haven’t read the whole thread, it seemed to me to have gotten bogged down midway in useless back & forth.

Most people with whom I’ve been walking this path, casually accept devas and other spirit beings, many having seen such beings themselves. Some always knew of them, having encountered them from childhood, whereas others began to see them only after getting more intuitively sensitive through meditation.

I haven’t knowingly encountered any monastics who remain skeptical - not just because of scriptural accounts, but due either to personal encounters or from often hearing of them from respected fellows. (Maybe people meditating in forests are less likely to escape some sort of encounters, lol)

On this general topic, you may find this story interesting -

Years ago, I spent some time in a wilderness location with a group of monastics and a few lay supporters. Apparently that forest was hopping with spirits.

Because soon, stories began circulating among the monastics of encounters with ghosts. Some of the unhappy spirits shared fascinating stories of history of the place. For example, one spoke of a terrible surprise massacre of women & children one night on a certain hillside centuries ago (related by the remorseful ghost of the man who was supposed to be on guard but was elderly and had fallen asleep). Everyone on hearing the story then admitted they too had felt uneasy walking on the path beside that location, so that story would explain it. There was also an account of a terrible fire in a more recent century, and more.

When some of these accounts were related to a very bright, accomplished young laywoman among the group (omitting details as to which monastics had had encounters, of course), she responded in the most withering way.

She declared, “I encounter only the beautiful devas here! There are so many. What’s [wrong] with you monastics seeing only ghosts?”

[Edited formatting & removed a few words]

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

I myself just actually believe the way to explain the teaching is not correct. They just used Late Indian names which probably changed the tradition. But I noticed it was probably no names before. All devas. And the word gods confuse people. I think it’s better untranslated.

But Ven Charlotteannun has interesting stories.

Me myself it’s also only seeing ghost but it might have been a high deva. And friends who see ghosts is normal also for me. So I think it’s not about unbelieving in beings. Maybe it’s just my aim. It got me blinded. But maybe it’s actually already part of me. So I start what we talked here but let’s see.

But about the names of devas. Notice the names Citta the householder used for all the types of earth devas. He was ex jain. Highly educated. He doesn’t even use the later devas names, so it seems for those reasons and because Samyutta starts the first suttas without using names. Then there is gradual using of deva names in the following chapters

That’s my indication the names we use was later applied to Buddhism. Buddhism probably started in a time names for devas was not used in the Sangha. Neither Jain. So the current Vedas I don’t even trust as being early tradition. Or Buddhism started even earlier.

Son of Anathapindika was born in Tusita Heaven

Anathapindika was reborn in Tusita heaven as stream-enter on earth. But he didn’t choose before death in the sutta. (MN 143)

Citta the Householder passed away and no heaven is mentioned. (SN 41.10)

And he showed this attitude towards another human rebirth. Not about Heaven it seems. His relatives(devas probably in heaven) thought what I quote next, they thought it’s probably about heavenly rebirth. It seems. But he explained after in detail for them to understand better the situation.

But attitude is priceless.

When this was said, Citta the householder’s friends & companions, relatives and kinsmen, said to him: “Steady your mindfulness, master. Don’t ramble.”

“What did I say that you say to me: ‘Steady your mindfulness, master. Don’t ramble’?”

“You said: ‘Even that is inconstant; even that is impermanent; one must abandon even that when one passes on.’”

“That was because garden devas, forest devas, tree devas, and devas inhabiting herbs, grasses, & forest giants have assembled and said to me: ‘Make a wish, householder: “In the future, may I become a king, a wheel-turning monarch!”’ And I said to them: ‘Even that is inconstant; even that is impermanent; one must abandon even that when one passes on.’”

But he was further in the path. Last rebirth. Understandable

Again about the devas names since they might have been nameless before Sangha might have given the names. But there is obvious development in Buddhism. One can see it only by reading hard copy books.