Does God(s) Exist and Does it Matter?

With Brahman/Atman we’re talking about ultimate reality, and not about gods with a small “g”, or beings in a realm. That’s another way of describing the difference.
I know what the suttas say, I also know what the Upanishads say.

I think I see where you’re coming from. Ultimate reality in the sense of a divine being that is eternal, omnipotent, etc?

Wonder about this Chinese translation. And it’s early Buddhism

THE SUTRA OF FORTY-TWO SECTIONS

The Buddha said, “Be aware that though the four physical elements all have
their own names, even they do not exist. The self is only conventionally existent, and such existence is not permanent. All things are like a mirage.”

Makes you wonder

Then your practicing according to the ancient tradition. I believe in the beginning it was about respect for all part of nature. For example Indra in the beginning was probably representing Thunder.

Nice :+1:

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Compare descriptions of Nibbana in the suttas with descriptions of Atman/Brahman in the Upanishads. Therein lies the difference.

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From the Vimuttimagga

THE RECOLLECTION OF DEITIES
Q. What is the recollection of deities? What is the practising of it? What are its salient characteristic, function and near cause? What is the
and distribute".
procedure?
. …
A. Considering the benefit of birth in a heaven, one recollects one’s own merits. This recollectedness is recollection and right recollectedness. This is called recollection of deities. The undisturbed dwelling of the mind in this recollection is the practising of it. Awareness of one’s own merits and the merits of the deities is its salient characteristic. To admire merit is its function. Confidence in the fruit of merit is its near cause.

A man who practises the recollection of deities gains eight benefits: he increases five qualities, namely, confidence, virtue, learning, liberality and wisdom; he can gain that which heavenly beings desire and to which they are devoted; he is happy in the anticipation of the reward of merit; he honours his body; he is reverenced by heavenly beings. Through this, he is able to practise virtue and recollection of liberality also. He fares well and approaches the ambrosial.

“What is the procedure?”: The new yogin goes to a place of solitude and keeps his mind undisturbed. With undisturbed mind he practises the recollection of deities thinking thus: "There are the Four Regents. There are the deities

of Tavatimsa, Yama, Tusita, Nimmanarati, Paranimmitavasavatti heavens. There are the Brahma-group deities and other deities. Those deities, being endowed with such confidence, on dying here, were born there. I too have such confidence. Endowed with such virtue, such learning, such liberality
1
and such wisdom, those deities were born there. I too have such wisdom". Thus he recollects his own and the deities’ confidence, virtue, learning, liberality and wisdom.
That yogin in these ways and through these virtues practises the recollection of deities, and is thereby endowed with confidence. Owing to confidence and recollectedness, his mind is undisturbed. With undisturbed mind he destroys the hindrances, arouses the meditation (jhana) factors and attains to access-meditation.
Q. Why does one recollect the merit of deities and not of humans?
A. The merit of the deities is the most excellent. They are born in excellent realms and are endowed with excellent minds. Having entered a good realm, they are endowed with good. Therefore one should recollect the merit of the deities and not the merits of men. The rest is as was fully taught above.

The recollection of deities has ended.

The explanation is good here. The purpose should be to see the merit of being born in a higher state.

But it’s important not think that this spiritual life is lived to born in that state.

Also you see the purpose to be aware that heavenly beings lived virtues lived on earth that’s why they was reborn in heaven. Makes you positive that if this real goal fails in higher stages your virtues should hopefully lead to a heavenly state still. But doesn’t happen all the time.

To admire merit is its function. Confidence in the fruit of merit is its near cause.

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In Introduction to The Book of Discipline

I. B. HORNER, M.A. Says

image

It’s interesting. Actually he says a bit more. But did we study it better now? :joy: I think we are at the same place.

Perhaps I could direct your attention to this, if you haven’t read it already

Here, he remarks that belief in the possibility of other realms and beings is included under Right View, not Right Knowledge, because we’re not expected to know these things in the beginning of the path itself!
The less involvement of devas in the EBTs is precisely to downplay their importance in our lives, in contrast to their central role in the preexisting Vedic culture.

The reason for this is mentioned in his biography here The Life of Sariputta

Two stanzas in the Theragatha (995, 996) relate, in words ascribed to the Venerable Sariputta himself, the way in which he attained Arahatship. There he tells us:

“It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release.”
In the next two verses (996-7) the Elder declares that he felt no inclination to develop the five supernormal powers (abhiñña).

"Not for knowledge of past lives,
Nor even for clairvoyance;
Not for psychic powers, or reading the minds of others,
Nor for knowing people’s passing away and being reborn;
Not for purifying the power of clairaudience,
Did I have any resolve.”

Sorry if I sounded like I’m over enthusiastic to convince you, that wasn’t my intention. I just thought it would be useful to you to get to know the other facets of the views pertaining to devas.

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That’s helpful. Thanks!

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In the Petakopadesa

But if it occurs to him thus (By means of this virtue or duty … . or divine life I shall be some god or other) (A. iv, 562; M. i, 101 ; S. iv, 180), then he has wrong view, and that is (ii) his corruption by wrong view.

  1. But if he is established in virtue and his 1 virtue-and-duty 2 is not misapprehended,1 then he being virtuous,3 that [virtue-and- duty] of his,3 being taken in a reasoned manner,4 generates ( non-remorse 5 • • • down to …Knowing and seeing of deliverance ) (§ 75, 2nd quotation). And that good conduct thus 6 conduces to his morality, [that is, to his moral progress] either here and now or on the occasion of his completing his time,6 or in other categories 7 in some future existence. That is why this is called the type of Thread Dealing with Morality.

Thinking a possibility is already letting your Master down. Buddha’s sasana is followed to transcend rebirth. That’s why don’t even have the possibility open in your mind. Just do want need to be done. It’s all about morality. Seeing the truth. That it’s that makes your progress.

I always had this might help you in your study.

Māra in the Chinese Saṃyuktāgamas, with a Translation of the Māra Saṃyukta of the Bieyi za ahan jing (T.100)

https://journals.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/view/3542/2240

Some new details.

Here in one of sutras Mara is said to have returned to his heavenly abode.

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Interesting. Thank you:-)

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I always wondered why there is no proper respond back here by Buddha concerning the gods. In suttanipata. So early tradition. It’s a very mysterious respond.

MOGHARĀJAMĀṆAVAPUCCHĀ

  1. Twice I asked the Sakyan
    and the one who has eyes did not answer me. But if for the third time the divine sage
    gets asked, he will explain, so I have heard.

  2. This world, the other world,
    and the Brahma-world with its gods, do not know about your view,
    you famous Gotama!

  3. To the man of such exalted vision
    it is that I have come with a question: when one observes the world in what way does the king of death not see one.

  4. Observe the world as empty,
    Mogharāja, and always be mindful!
    Smash the underlying view of self!
    Thus you may become one who has passed beyond death. When one observes the world in this way
    the king of death does not see one.

In place of saying something about them. His first sentence.

Observe the world as empty

Very mysterious. What is mysterious is that for so many times he had to ask him. What the reason he didn’t want to. And then still it seems he talks a lot about it in Nikayas. Who is portraying the real Buddha? . :thinking:

Sorry, but I don’t understand what you’re saying?

I did read the sutta, though, and the King of Death is Mara it seems. It sounds like the Buddha is talking about the Deathless/Nibbana. In that context, “gods” and even individual humans have a different meaning or perhaps no meaning at all. I’m not sure because I have not attained Nibbana.

The point is, there seems to be different planes of attainment, so to speak. In this plane, I believe I’m a real individual because I suffer when I ignore that fact. For example, if I say I’m not a real self, arguing I’m just an illusion, I’ll likely act negligently and end up suffering. I’ll also likely die sooner than later and then be reborn probably in a lower realm due to wrong view.

On the other hand, it seems when one has gained enough insight and practice, one may breakthrough to Nibbana and truly understand anatta. It’s a paradox. We, including gods and other beings, are real to an extent, but there’s also the truth of anatta, which is something I don’t fully understand. It seems like no one can fully understand anatta until they are fully enlightened and see it for themselves.

Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re saying here?

Oh boy , I understood now. He is talking about Nibbana. Why I didn’t see that.

I’m seeing that he had to ask Buddha three times to get a response. As if Buddha was hesitating to anwser.

Why did he not want to anwser?

Buddha don’t keep silence without a reason. One reason might have been. The person infront was not ready. Second because the person was asking about view

But actually like I remember Ananda in sutta response about views. He said he had no views.

We are supposed to maybe have no belief and views.

The commentary Nettippakarana say about another power Buddha has for knowing the future rebirth of someone. So that’s another possibility he stayed silent before. Seeing the person rebirth.

Knowledge of Difference in Belief]

  1. Many elements and different elements of what world ? Whatever element creatures believe in, that they express and insist upon. Some believe in forms, some believe in sounds, some believe in odours, some believe in flavours, some believe in tangibles, some believe in ideas, some believe in females, some believe in males, some believe in generosity, some believe in inferiority, [98] some believe in superiority, some believe in gods, some believe in human beings, some believe in extinction.1

Footnote
568/1 All these ‘beliefs’ could be expressed in terms of ‘isms’ as follows: materialism or realism (5 varieties according to which of the 5 ‘senses’ one believes gives ‘true’ data), idealism, masculinism, feminism, liberalism, evolu- tionism (from an origin), involutionism (towards a goal), theism or deism, humanism, and extinctionism (for the last see the ditthadhammanibbana wrong view at D. i, 36 and M. i, 509 and nibbanam mannati at M. i, 4).

Then it says the Buddha ability

  1. Knowledge as to cause and as to instance about this unlimitedly thus ‘This one is outguidable, this one is not outguidable, this one is going to heaven, this one is going to a bad destination’ is called the Perfect One’s fourth Power consisting in knowledge of how creatures differ in their beliefs

So he can see how easy it will be to guide them. He was maybe mindfully thinking how to respond.

Who is the King of Death??

The king of death for Brahmins is Yama as is in Vedas. For Buddhism also. King Yama Is the one to encounter you at death.

Vedas says

Let us with offerings honour Yama’s deathless birth.

Reverence be to Yama, reverence to death

Death is the teacher

And in Suttas we have

Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you — an intelligent and mature man — “I too am subject to death, I am not exempt from death: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?”-Buddha

He is teaching. The same tradition as Veda.

And why more is it that death is the teacher?

There is the case where a certain excellent thoroughbred person hears, ‘In that town or village over there a man or woman is in pain or has died.’ He is stirred & agitated by that. Stirred, he becomes appropriately resolute. Resolute, he both realizes with his body the highest truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees. This type of excellent thoroughbred person, I tell you, is like the excellent thoroughbred horse who, on seeing the shadow of the goad-stick, is stirred & agitated. Some excellent thoroughbred people are like this. And this is the first type of excellent thoroughbred person to be found existing in the world." -Buddha

So here death was the teacher. Because a hearing about death, the person was said to see the highest truth.Amazing

He is stirred & agitated by that. Stirred, he becomes appropriately resolute. Resolute, he both realizes with his body the highest truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees.

Then Buddha responded to the person

Smash the underlying view of self!

This is identity as far as identity extends. This is the Deathless, namely, the liberation of the mind through not clinging.”-Buddha

Since we don’t see something as belonging to us. Since we don’t see something as was us. Since we don’t see something as going to be us. The edentity is stopped. It reaches its end after seeing finally with insight that it could not be that something is us. Because everything is impermanence. In constant fluxes.

Thus you may become one who has passed beyond death. When one observes the world in this way
the king of death does not see one.

Why does the King of death not see you?
Since he is the one to guide you where your going for rebirth. But since you don’t show after attaining the goal of Sainthood. How can the King Yama see you? That’s why you are said passed beyond death. By totally eliminating the attachment to needing to say you are something. You are. We are here. But dependently from beginning-less times.

I have a self… I have no self… It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self… It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self… It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self… or… This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

Buddhist cosmology places Brahma Sahampati higher than Mahabrahma. See here Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation
Here Baka Brahma is identical to Mahabrahma in that both are described in same terms - the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. Here , the Buddha mentions realms higher than that of Mahabrahma -

" There are, brahma, bodies other than yours that you don’t know, don’t see, but that I know, I see. There is, brahma, the body named Abhassara (Radiant/Luminous) from which you fell away & reappeared here…'There is, brahma, the body named Subhakinha (Beautiful Black/Refulgent Glory) … the body named Vehapphala (Sky-fruit/Great Fruit), {the body named Abhibhu (Conqueror)} which you don’t know, don’t see, but that I know, I see."

Brahma Sahampati is placed still higher than these , since he’s one of the Non-returners from the previous Buddha.

This might be helpful - The Thirty-one Planes of Existence

Yes, the EBTs mention one Mara and one Brahma for each World System. And there are thousands of such World systems

"Ānanda, a galaxy extends a thousand times as far as the moon and sun revolve and the shining ones light up the quarters. In that galaxy there are a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sinerus king of mountains, a thousand Indias, a thousand Western Continents, a thousand Northern Continents, a thousand Eastern Continents, four thousand oceans, four thousand Great Kings, a thousand realms of the Gods of the Four Great Kings, a thousand realms of the Gods of the Thirty-Three, of the Gods of Yama, of the Joyful Gods, of the Gods who Love to Create, of the Gods who Control the Creations of Others, and a thousand Brahmā realms. This is called a thousandfold lesser world system, a ‘galaxy’. - SuttaCentral

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What is spontaneous generation? There are gods and denizens of hell and certain human beings and some beings in the lower worlds; this is called spontaneous generation.
-Maha-sihanada Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar

This seems to mean all gods are spontaneously reborn.

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Yes. Your right. That’s my understanding also of EBT about Mahabrahma and Brahmas

Since Brahma was a high title. All former disciples of Buddha sasana is higher than Mahabrahma, because they have crossed the stream. That’s why it’s a heavenly plane that Mara can’t see. In that sense they are higher. It’s like on earth. Where they are called the real brahmanas. (Brahmins) or like the two main disciples and others with infront their name Maha. (Mahakassapa) of course because there is also more Kassapa.

I like to add. It’s not about believing in gods. It’s about believing in the good merits result in higher rebirth.

Same as there is no need to believe in Nibbana to attain Nibbana. Of course there is a desire for it as first. But not by believing in it or wishing for it there is the final liberation.

If you will believe in Brahma you will be one to lie near me, to lie within my province, as you will be for me to work my will upon and punish.-M.49

That was just a mock in sutta. There is no force believe in Buddhism. Buddha never forced people to believe what they can’t see. He simply taught that the Right view in after life must be there.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply :slightly_smiling_face:

Well higher rebirth would imply gods, don’t you think? :wink: The term ‘gods’ is just a title, a conventional designation for beings higher than human. They aren’t gods in the literal sense of an omnipotent creator; the term ‘devas’ , I have heard, means illustrious ones.

I partly agree! We can’t attain Nibbana just by believing or craving for it ! But there has to be some faith in the existence of Nibbana so that we can put in the efforts to attain it, faith in the possibility of such a state devoid of passion, aversion and delusion, and faith in kamma, that our actions can lead to such a state.
You are right, the Buddha didn’t force people to believe these things, all he asked was to keep an open mind! :anjal:

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That’s the thing. There is two way to see this. With attachment in still thinking in terms of being or thinking higher rebirth means higher happiness. The first one. Although used in nikayas. I think Buddha in the beginning style of preaching is not talking about the beings. Because he is preaching to reach Nibbana we need stop the desire to wanting to become something.

Yes that true. But in reality it can be mind again, the normal desire to wanting to become something.

I found very interesting thing while reading and I have seen Buddha doing it to Ven Ananda while Ānanda said to Buddha that he can see dependent origination, that it’s actually he sees it easy. But replied and say. Don’t say that. Dependent Origination is very deep. And hard to see.

Read the text. But actually that book has some interesting opinion also of gods. Although it’s a 4 to 5 Century text. What he said is food for thought.

Sometimes I see the way of Buddha preaching as the only way to get people to the other shore. We have to be intelligent and see the bigger picture. His strategy. The same the text gives a opinion about self that maybe @brooks might be interested. Which sounds better for someone to talk like that. It’s the reality. But there a better explanation also. In place taking the extreme views like most do.