Does God(s) Exist and Does it Matter?

Discussion
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How do you see gods? It seems it was the Indian things roaming in the sky of India.

So actually in our region is not explained.

He is one of the four Regent Gods, and the Ātānātiya Sutta (D.iii.199ff) contains a vivid description of the Yakkha kingdom of Uttarakuru, with its numerous cities, crowds of inhabitants, parks, lakes and assembly halls.

Vessavana is also called Kuvera, and the Yakkhas are his servants and messengers.

Here and elsewhere Yakkhas are the gods. So actually we are talking about spirits.

The case of the Yakkha Vajirapāni is of special Interest. D.i.95.

The Commentary (DA.i.264) says he is not an ordinary Yakkha, but Sakka himself.

And I once shared that in the Chinese sinhala vinaya commentary said all deities fall under Yakkhas.

By Ratana Sutta already Yakkha cult is seen. In it > bhūta (部多). A living being or the ghost of a deceased person. was used.

In the commmentary is also mentioned that Mara is a Yakkha.

It seems the cosmology of Buddhism resolve around the death spirits. So ancestors cult.

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Thanks, I was aware of the 6 recollections being taught to householders in the EBTs but wasn’t sure if they were also taught to mendicants. I find them effective and this sutta gives me even more confidence in them:-)

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I understand gods as pure essence of being.

I am not Indian, so I had to look up these mysterious Gods of the Thirty-Three in Wikipedia. And what I saw caught my eye because Earth is a god of the Thirty-Three.

I am a rock climber, an ant who climbs Earth. Way before I read the EBTs, every time I visited the mountains I asked for permission to climb and gave thanks after. Earth is vast and non-percipient–my requests and gratitude go unanswered. But it just feels right to pay homage to the Earth. Even now, in the garden, it is that very same Earth I do not violently rip up–it nurtures and protects the plants that feed me. Here too there is permission and gratitude. From that personal understanding of Earth, it is natural to extrapolate to the other devas described in the suttas. Indeed, the four elements are represented in the Thirty-Three, so suttas such as MN140 make sense.

Have you found the recollection of the deities to be of use? I’ve always scratched my head about this one. It seems odd to recollect a rather long list of deities. Almost like memorizing the periodic table.

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This year I have found recollecting deities very helpful, especially in conjunction with the other 5 recollections. I typically start with recollecting the qualities of the Buddha and continue the recollections in the order they’re taught.

One practical tip that helps, which I learned from Ajahn @Brahmali’s guided metta meditation, is when recollecting the deities I cultivate gratitude for the fact that they (along with many other beneficent beings like much of the Sangha) make the world a better place.

That said, I don’t typically spend much time recollecting the different types of deities because I’m not familiar with them. I tend to focus more on Brahma. Interestingly, Brahma is not mentioned specifically but presumably is included in “gods higher than these.” This is a practice I’m still developing but, for me, causes the results the Buddha describes in AN 3.70

The simile in that sutta also seems significant and suggests a cryptic secondary meaning.

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Thank you. I’ve downloaded AN3.70 for listening. :pray:

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I’d love to hear how it goes if you decide to practice with AN 3.70. Please feel free to PM if you’d rather share that way.

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The position of the Highest Brahma changes over time right? Because of rebirths?

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Yes, exactly. Interestingly, in one EBT, the Buddha appeared before Brahma because he knew Brahma was thinking Brahma is eternal. Out of compassion, the Buddha taught him otherwise.

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Yeah, it seems the high rank gods in Buddhism is portrayed as former good example humans. Like Sakka took vows as human. And because their virtues they ranked like that.

I think we misunderstand the name Brahma Sahampati. I think his name had to do that he was Accomplished as human in 5 faculties. Indriyas. But I think he is not Mahabrahma. He is just a Brahma.

And in another sutta. There is Mahabrahma. Without his name.

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I’m not sure how the Brahmas and Maras work and rank. For example, sometimes in the EBTs it seems like Mara is spoken of as one entity, then in other EBTs, “Maras” is used suggesting there is more than one Mara.

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I noticed that. But mostly Maras is used to symbolise the type of temptation there is present. Normaly I have noticed there is also a high rank Mara. And the temptations is the daughters. Which are named I think by the sort of lust.

But Ven Moggallana said he was a Mara once. I wonder if it was because he was formerly born in a low dimensions that he got the abilities

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it would be very interesting to read. If you know how to get it please share it :pray:

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I have a collection of suttas that aren’t clear. These are my study list. The first one I studied was DN33. I study by walking meditation listening to the suttas downloaded from Voice.suttacentral.net. Each download is about an hour, so I walk for an hour. During the week I listen to the same audio each day. The next week I go to the next hour of study. When I’m done, I repeat the entire cycle, which takes months.

Listening mindfully takes effort. Frequently the mind skips around in this or that distraction. But eventually the restlessness subsides and clarity emerges. It becomes easier to hear what is spoken. It becomes easier to internally recite what is spoken. It becomes easier to understand the sutta. Understanding takes time–it’s conditioning.

DN33:2.1.136: That mendicant feels inspired by the meaning and the teaching in that Dhamma, no matter how a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped, attended, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom. Feeling inspired, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed.

So AN3.70 is now on the list and it will eventually fill a week, and again. :smiley:

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Thanks for sharing @karl_lew. This sounds like an interesting and effective approach to study. You’ve inspired me!

I look forward to hearing any insights you have about AN 3.70 after working with it, especially any insights involving the 5 similes.

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There are actually six:

  1. Long day work, pop a beer and watch TV:

AN3.70:2.5: It’s just like a cowherd who, in the late afternoon, takes the cows back to their owners. They reflect:

  1. The Buddha is my hero, I think about him all the time:

AN3.70:4.6: As they recollect the Realized One, their mind becomes clear, joy arises, and mental corruptions are given up. It’s just like cleaning a dirty head by applying effort.

  1. This Teaching is my guide, I follow it exactly in mind, body and speech:

AN3.70:7.5: As they recollect the teaching, their mind becomes clear, joy arises, and mental corruptions are given up. It’s just like cleaning a dirty body by applying effort.

  1. The Sangha enfolds me like a cloth, I trust in spiritual fellowship:

AN3.70:10.5: As they recollect the Saṅgha, their mind becomes clear, joy arises, and mental corruptions are given up. It’s just like cleaning a dirty cloth by applying effort.

  1. Mindfulness is my guide. I watch and reflect:

AN3.70:13.4: As they recollect their ethical conduct, their mind becomes clear, joy arises, and mental corruptions are given up. It’s just like cleaning a dirty mirror by applying effort.

  1. Inspired by perfection, I align myself accordingly:

AN3.70:16.10: As they recollect the faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom of both themselves and those deities, their mind becomes clear, joy arises, and mental corruptions are given up. It’s just like cleaning dirty gold by applying effort.

:pray:

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Thanks. That certainly seems like a reasonable interpretation of these similes. I’m guessing there are many.

What I’m specifically referring to is why the Buddha specifically chose the 1) head, 2) body, 3) cloth, 4) mirror, and 5) gold as the objects subject to cleaning that he says are analogous to cleaning the mind with the five recollections. While working with these recollections in meditation, an insight came to mind centered around these five phenomena. It was not really analytical in nature.

So, I’ll be curious to see if any new insight comes to your mind after you follow your daily study/practice routine with this sutta. If you have a similar insight, that would be really interesting. I’d also love to read the commentary on this sutta, but I’m not sure where to find an English version. I’d be happy to pay for it.

That’s along some of the same lines I’m talking about. Again, I do get the sense that this simile has different meanings on different levels. I think we agree the Buddha is the best teacher of humans and Gods, and he chose his words and similes very carefully. So, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that he would choose similes that might have more than one meaning for different people at different places on the path.

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  • The Buddha is dead, so it is our head that reflects on the form, “The Buddha”.
  • The teaching is to be practiced actively, hence “body”
  • The Sangha enfolds and protects, like cloth
  • The mirror reflects what is presented and is undirected
  • Gold is used extensively in MN140 to signify the refined, malleable equanimity conditioned by the practice.

I’m currently studying MN140, which is where the last reference came from. I heard it for the first time this week.

MN140:20.1: There remains only equanimity, pure, bright, pliable, workable, and radiant.
MN140:20.2: It’s like when a goldsmith or a goldsmith’s apprentice prepares a forge, fires the crucible, picks up some gold with tongs and puts it in the crucible. From time to time they fan it, from time to time they sprinkle water on it, and from time to time they just watch over it. That gold becomes pliable, workable, and radiant, not brittle, and is ready to be worked. Then the goldsmith can successfully create any kind of ornament they want, whether a bracelet, earrings, a necklace, or a golden garland.

Are there alternate interpretations? :pray:

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Thanks, Karl.

I’m guessing there are many. I’m not ready to communicate publicly about the one I’m specifically referring to. I would say that regarding the body simile, in this context, leaving Dhamma untranslated seems more meaningful. This is because “Dhamma” includes both the teaching and the Dhamma itself, which is present regardless of whether there’s a Buddha’s “Teaching” present in the world.

The way I understand this is the Teaching is like the map and the Dhamma is the path (of course one of the definitions of Dhamma is the teaching, but it’s not the only definition). The path is always there regardless of whether there’s a map or not. So, it doesn’t make complete sense to me to call both the map and the path, “the map”, which is what calling the Dhamma simply “the Teaching” seems like at times. However, I digressed into a translation topic I suppose:-) And I’m sure there are issues with reducing Dhamma to only the path and the teaching. Perhaps we can start a new topic on this sometime if you’re interested.

That said, thanks for the inspiration on your sutta study/walk. I just downloaded AN 3.70 from voice, and my wife and I are going to do our Sunday(Sabbath) Sutta study by listening to it on a morning walk.

@karl_lew, while just listening to AN 3.70, another quality of the similes emerged. If we look at similes 1-5: head/Buddha, body/Dhamma, cloth/Sangha, mirror/ethics, gold/deities, the Buddha takes us from the more subtle to the gross. For example, the head is finer than gold. This could have other layers of meaning, too.

For example, when our mind is gross (in a less refined state), perhaps the less subtle similes might be more helpful. Perhaps this would be similar to how the Buddha seems to teach starting with generosity and/or ethics for someone just starting on the path.

Another layer of meaning that the Buddha could be conveying is that recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha would have a more refined effect on the mind than recollecting virtue or deities. These similes almost seem like looking at a prism – it can be seen from so many different angles:-)

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The suttas appear to reject the idea of Atman/Brahman, which reflects the basic difference between Buddhism and “Hinduism”.
In that sense Buddhism is an atheist philosophy.

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It does seem that some modern Buddhists believe this way, but that’s not how the EBTs read to me. That said, if we bring anatta into the discussion, that complicates matters. Bringing anatta into a rational discussion seems to be like bringing infinity into a rational discussion, or mathematical equation.

On the other hand, it seems like the Buddha teaches that the view “deities don’t exist” would be a wrong view. For example, the Buddha teaches that the view “there are no beings who are spontaneously reborn” is wrong view. My understanding is beings who are spontaneously reborn are reborn as non-returner deities. I’m not certain of this, though. See:

https://suttacentral.net/an3.141/en/sujato